How far could a Male Olympic Shot Putter throw a Woman's Shot?

I saw a 210' + male discus thrower throw a women's probably 300+. It was comical.

Almost an answer wrote:

Sept. 20, 2011 in Warsaw:

In a very interesting men's Shot Put competition - throwers had two throws each with 8, 7, 6 and 5 kg implements - the overall winner was Canada's Dylan Armstrong with an 88.67m score over Olympic champion Tomasz Majewski (88.64) and Christian Cantwell (87.24). With the 8 kg shot the best was Cantwell (20.27m); with the standard 7 kg again Cantwell achieved the best mark at 21.42; but with 6 kg Armstrong was the best (23.26m) and with the 5 kg Majewski tossed to 24.88m. The marks for the top trio: 1. Armstrong (20.03-21.23-23.26-24.15), 2. Majewski (19.75-20.86-23.15-24.88), 3. Cantwell (20.27-21.42-22.71-22.81).

This was really interesting to me, so I kinda dove into the data. Just looking at each of these series, it would seem that Majewski would throw the 4kg ~87', Armstrong ~84', and Cantwell ~79'. All of them threw the 7kg around 3.5' shorter than their PBs with the standard shot, so you could assume that they all had potential to go further than they did that day. If you add the 3.5', and assume that that would be closer to 4.5' with the 4kg, you're looking at throws in the 84'-92' range. The question is asking how far could a Male Olympic Shot Putter throw a 4kg, and these guys aren't typical Olympians, they are medalists. Randy Barnes or Ryan Crouser might be able to throw even further, but it is tough to say. Cantwell had the hardest time with the lighter weight, and he has the furthest PB at 22.54m. The typical Olympian would likely be in the 80'-85' range (this puts into context how massive Michael Carter's 81'+ throw with the 12# shot was given his youth). With more specificity in training (and I'm not a shot put training guru, so maybe this is way off), the WR might be around 100' with the 4kg.

Cantwell and Majewski are very different types of throwers, and I think this series of throws really illustrates that difference. Cantwell had massive strength, and so the weight wasn't as much of an issue for him in terms of how far he could throw (though the numbers here are likely misleading; 22.81 doesn't seem in line for what he could probably throw the 5kg). Cantwell is probably a double or triple Olympic Champion if the competition were with a 20# shot instead of a 16#. Majewski's length allowed him to generate more leverage, and he relied less on strength to get his results, which would allow him to throw the lighter implements further. You don't normally get to see these differences in physiology at play in the field events, as the competition isn't geared that way, but it is similar to comparing Charles Jock to Robby Andrews in the 800m. They obtained similar results, but with very different methods

Here are a couple of relevant things:

Tomasz Majewski FAR w/ 12lb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-okHaHCbaI

Very hard to tell, but this is likely a 5.25kg (the 5 comes into focus, and nothing else that I'm aware of has 2 decimals and ends in 5, unless it's a special training implement).

Jacko Gill 24.35m 4kg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9eTY8Kxjt8

I would be interested to know the answer to the opposite question. How far could, say, Natalya Lisovskaya or Ilona Slupianek have put the 16-pound shot?

It's possible that we don't know the answers to these questions because it doesn't benefit female shot putters to train with a 16-pound shot put or for male shot putters to train with an 8.8-pound shot put, since in each case the athlete would have to alter her or his usual technique.

Almost an answer wrote:

Sept. 20, 2011 in Warsaw:

In a very interesting men's Shot Put competition - throwers had two throws each with 8, 7, 6 and 5 kg implements - the overall winner was Canada's Dylan Armstrong with an 88.67m score over Olympic champion Tomasz Majewski (88.64) and Christian Cantwell (87.24). With the 8 kg shot the best was Cantwell (20.27m); with the standard 7 kg again Cantwell achieved the best mark at 21.42; but with 6 kg Armstrong was the best (23.26m) and with the 5 kg Majewski tossed to 24.88m. The marks for the top trio: 1. Armstrong (20.03-21.23-23.26-24.15), 2. Majewski (19.75-20.86-23.15-24.88), 3. Cantwell (20.27-21.42-22.71-22.81).

This was really interesting and I thank you for it.

I remember that when Michael Carter set the still-standing(?) high school record with the 12#/~5.4kg shot (24.78m/81-3 1/2!), a number of world-class men who threw the 16-pounder 20m+ said that there was no way they could throw the HS shot as far as Carter did. (Carter's record put was FORTY years ago btw.)

If the last shot that these three men were putting was really just 5kg and not the 12-pounder, and the best anyone could do was under 25m . . . it would suggest to me that top men, even if they specialized in it, would be unable to break 30m for the women's 4kg. In fact, based on these competitive results (and acknowledging that the three throwers were not specifically trained for the lighter shots), I'd be surprised if anyone could break 28m. That's still a long way--a little over 90 feet--but it's not the 100+ that people were tossing around above.

Worth noting that Carter used the O'Brien technique, not rotation. His speed across the circle and his active right leg are amazing:

What people always forget is the the differences between men and women become far more pronounced at the ends of the distribution. The BEST male shotputters will always be better than the BEST female shotputters.

Glide, discus technique, or baseball throw?

Tyler Kesler wrote:

I would be interested to know the answer to the opposite question. How far could, say, Natalya Lisovskaya or Ilona Slupianek have put the 16-pound shot?

In his book Speed Trap Charlie Francis gave an anecdote about a top Canadian male shotputter who went out to the circle at an international gathering, prepared to make a training "day" of it by bringing along a thermos of cappuccino and sandwiches.

One of the East German female shotputters (I don't recall which) happened by while the Canadian was setting up camp. She spotted a men's 16# shot, went to the circle, and without a warmup put it well over 15m/50ft. From a stand.

The man saw this, picked up his stuff, and left.

Ah, the DDR: "Better Bodies Through Chemistry"

There is a power equation we use. The 4k should go approximately a third farther, and a woman should lose a quarter of her distance throwing the 16. It assumes the thrower has sufficient speed or sufficient strength (and is useful for detecting a lack) for such a different implement.

in Athletics Weekly 28th April 1951 p. 4 it says, "James Fuchs, whose 58 ft. 10 in. (and a bit!) shot put may make the world record list, has put the 8 lb. shot over 80 ft., and the 12 lb. shot over 67 ft."

for reference:

58 ft. 10 in. = 17.93m

67 ft. = 20.42m

80 ft. = 24.38m

cheers.

through it like a base ball.

(I didn't check the math)

Everything else being equal, you can throw it further if you're taller.

If you can put the same amount of work into it (same force through the same distance -- tougher with the smaller shotput), E = .5*mv^2, v^2 varies roughly inversely with m for a fixed amount of work. So d will vary roughly inversely with mass, at best. Realistically speaking the timing will make it hard to achieve.

The optimal initial angle stays fixed at 45 degrees, so sin^2(theta) = 0.5 and sin(2theta) = 1.

Wind resistance probably plays a minor role when the ball is so massive and the velocities are so low. The shotput will be going faster when the ball is smaller (so more wind resistance) but the cross section will also be smaller (so less).

Everything else being equal is always a good starting point. . But, the reality is that some individuals are faster - or slower than others. Cantwell being an example of huge size and strength without the speed of the others. In addition repeated throwing with the lighter shot would result over time in greater distances for all of them. 100 feet certainly isn't out of the question if the right qualities were to come together in a single individual, with the necessary speed being the rarest factor. The optimal angle? 45 degrees is optimal in the shot if it's being launched from ground level, but, when being launched from higher than ground level (from a shot putter's extended arm/fingers) the optimal release angle falls as the height of the point of release increases. . . Optimal release angle is also influenced by the individual's biomechanics, specific strengths, and technical ability/method. The best throwers tend to have a release angle over 35 degrees but under 42 . . .