Why have 800m times progressed much slower than any other distance?

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

WvN`s muscles work without any difficulties at 1200m fast repetitions in training so it would be very strange they would not function up to 800m in a race if he was special trained for it.

Are you actually dense? Do you believe the ability to physically travel 1200m on foot is all that is required to become a world class 800m runner?

Of course WVN can run 1200m slowly in training. No that does not mean he would be capable of anything close to elite 800m running.

As I said, it would be a miracle for him to go sub 1:50.

Fast twitch fibres that take you to sub 10 and sub 20 200m speeds do not work past 60s of running. They fatigue and are quite useless. Nothing to do with your aerobic system or otherwise.

You and calculo suffer from the same disease; the assumption that all events have the same aerobic component and that speed is transferable up through all distances. This is a very amateur school of thought.

no

too many huge problems with that run

- it was NOT an auto time

from 1/1/81, ALL times had to be auto & it was such a low-class meet in firenze that they coudn't provide a functioning photo-finish system

his genuine auto clocking couda been some tenths slower as shown by olizarerenko's wr in '80 which had auto time of 1'54.85 but a HT which was "official" at that date included a 1'54.5 !!!

- such an unknown meet that it was not televised outside of italy when in those days there was banket euro coverage of important meets

- hugely questionable track of laughable 6 lanes in the modern synthetic track era

6 lane tracks can't be trusted

they are only 6 lanes because of

a) cheapness - instead of paying for 8 lanes

&/or

b) squeezed into a kickaball stadium

either way, the provenance of them being anywhere close to 400m is hugely unlikely

in summary, coe's "clocking" in firenze has no legitimacy at all as NOT auto-timed & further debased by being run in an unknown meet, not live televised to world & on absurd 6 lane track which are all extinct nowdays for any serious meet

no

they had far better pacing in those days then generally had today

canova has repeatedly stated they pay peanuts for pacers today

back in '80s when prize money was only just coming in, promoters had plenty of money to organise good/great pacers as the eite guys weren't being paid or paid small prize money

i suggest you analyse the races

the top-2 guys ever of synthetic track era are Big_man & Kipketer

both of them had abominale circumstances to there best runs

- Kip finished with a 1'41.11 which was run in brutal heat probably 100F at trackside

this was far too hot by probably 25F to run best 800

in his 1'41.24 he had utterly suicidal 23.0 !!!! opener & still suicidal 48.3 !! at bell

off 24-low / 49-flat/low, he wouda been looking at

~ 1'40-flat/low

- Big-Man had 1'40.91 which was unrested with rounds including a 1'44+ in his legs

to run your best possible time is assumed to be done so in zurich with a good solid few days rest, not preparing with a 1'44+ day or 2 before !!!

he then set off in an almost equally suicidal 23.4 !!! opener & continued solo to the finish !!!

for him, if that had been a fully rested, drafted to bell run off again 24-low / 49-flat, he wouda been looking at

~ 1'40-flat

your 1'40 barrier there & then had a 50/50 shot at being broken

i suggest you see what your stats analysis comes out as if record was

1'40.00

no

- poor pacing wrecks 800 times

- greater interest in winning than chasing the clock also ruins times

it is all about the win on the circuit NOT the clock

no

too many huge problems with that run

- it was NOT an auto time

from 1/1/81, ALL times had to be auto & it was such a low-class meet in firenze that they coudn't provide a functioning photo-finish system

his genuine auto clocking couda been some tenths slower as shown by olizarerenko's wr in '80 which had auto time of 1'54.85 but a HT which was "official" at that date included a 1'54.5 !!!

- such an unknown meet that it was not televised outside of italy when in those days there was banket euro coverage of important meets

- hugely questionable track of laughable 6 lanes in the modern synthetic track era

6 lane tracks can't be trusted

they are only 6 lanes because of

a) cheapness - instead of paying for 8 lanes

&/or

b) squeezed into a kickaball stadium

either way, the provenance of them being anywhere close to 400m is hugely unlikely

in summary, coe's "clocking" in firenze has no legitimacy at all as NOT auto-timed & further debased by being run in an unknown meet, not live televised to world & on absurd 6 lane track which are all extinct nowdays for any serious meet

no

they had far better pacing in those days then generally had today

canova has repeatedly stated they pay peanuts for pacers today

back in '80s when prize money was only just coming in, promoters had plenty of money to organise good/great pacers as the eite guys weren't being paid or paid small prize money

i suggest you analyse the races

the top-2 guys ever of synthetic track era are Big_man & Kipketer

both of them had abominale circumstances to there best runs

- Kip finished with a 1'41.11 which was run in brutal heat probably 100F at trackside

this was far too hot by probably 25F to run best 800

in his 1'41.24 he had utterly suicidal 23.0 !!!! opener & still suicidal 48.3 !! at bell

off 24-low / 49-flat/low, he wouda been looking at

~ 1'40-flat/low

- Big-Man had 1'40.91 which was unrested with rounds including a 1'44+ in his legs

to run your best possible time is assumed to be done so in zurich with a good solid few days rest, not preparing with a 1'44+ day or 2 before !!!

he then set off in an almost equally suicidal 23.4 !!! opener & continued solo to the finish !!!

for him, if that had been a fully rested, drafted to bell run off again 24-low / 49-flat, he wouda been looking at

~ 1'40-flat

your 1'40 barrier there & then had a 50/50 shot at being broken

i suggest you see what your stats analysis comes out as if record was

1'40.00

no

- poor pacing wrecks 800 times

- greater interest in winning than chasing the clock also ruins times

it is all about the win on the circuit NOT the clock

800ftw. wrote:Rudisha is a once in a generation talent like Bolt. No doubt he could run ~1:40.5 in the right race in 2012

much quicker than 1'40.5

lack of drafting to bell at 0.7s/lap for 200 - 400 interval already brings it down to

1'40.56

then you have to take substantial amounts off this for

- fatigue after rounds including a 1'44+, compared to fully rested in a 1-off zurich

- suicidal 23.4 opener when 24-low is fastest anyone shoud ever attempt to get fastest possible time

800ftw. wrote:Rudisha is a once in a generation talent like Bolt. No doubt he could run ~1:40.5 in the right race in 2012

much quicker than 1'40.5

lack of drafting to bell at 0.7s/lap for 200 - 400 interval already brings it down to

1'40.56

then you have to take substantial amounts off this for

- fatigue after rounds including a 1'44+, compared to fully rested in a 1-off zurich

- suicidal 23.4 opener when 24-low is fastest anyone shoud ever attempt to get fastest possible time

800ftw. wrote:You and calculo suffer from the same disease; the assumption that all events have the same aerobic component and that speed is transferable up through all distances. This is a very amateur school of thought

eh ???

what is this nonsense ???

i have never said all events have same aerobic component

that is rubbish

all i have said in the past is that your basic 400/800 speed is a guide to potential for any event from 800 to 10k

of course some of their speed is transferable up the distances

if coupla 5k guys with similar flat-out pb, both run in an execrably slow race to bell & one has 47 speed & the other 52s speed, who is going to win in the last lap ???

for interest

mathematically i reckon the equivalent times are

1'42.00 = 44.00

->

1'41.00 = 43.50

1'40.00 = 43.00

i reckon Big-Man in '12 games if that had been ideal 1-off in zurich, smoothly drafted to bell with perfect 2s +ve splits with 0.5s slowing furlongs wouda run

~ 1'40-flat

which from above is = 43.00

i reckon his winning shape in '12 was superior to the 400 WR at the time of 43.18

however, that is only nominally

i reckon MJ didn't run that 43.18 ideally & couda gone 42.8/42.9 & that was after rounds

wade is even more horrific !!!

his 43.03 was run with suicidal pace of 31.0 to 300

ideally paced, i reckon he couda gone

~ 42.5

which is equivalent to

1'39.00 !!!

if he'd paced it ideally, which for a 400 shoud be 1s +ve splits between furlongs & slowing by 0.25s for each 100m split

Big-Man's likely ~ 1'40-flat in '12 is very good but still ~ 1s slower than the calibre of wade's run & remember, wade did that after rounds !!!

id throw in jarmila kratochvilova,and ana quirot as well.both were amazing over 400's and 800's.

Time it yourself and tell me how far off 1:41.73 you get! I get 1:41.6 and if we accept that you add 0.14 to hand times for event 400m and over, then 1:41.73 is close enough for me. IAAF also list the hand times as 1:41.6/1:41.6/1:41.7

Even it it was 1:41.8x it was still light years ahead of anyone at that stage. I do agree that the time does not meet that of the IAAF WR requirements. But he still ran it and that can't be refuted.

The track size is no more questionable than that of the track size of Jim Ryun's 1:44.3 run, yet you never question that nor the validity of the timing on the day. Please find me a full video of the run to prove that it's was indeed 1:44.3, as he was never able to get anywhere near that time again. Yet, you still use this run time and time again, as a basis to insist that Jim was capable of run under 1:40....50 years ago and yet we still haven't had an athlete approach this time with all the advancements in both training and equipment.

Present a balanced unbiased argument and I'll listen.

I definitely think you are right about Coe's 1:41.7 in the 1980s being better than the times of today for that distance.

However consider what Ryun, Snell, and Keino ran on grass, clay, cinder, and sometimes slightly harder surfaces! They had next to nothing in the way of medicine, training knowledge (they gave that to us), clothing, shoes, and etc.!

Then go back to Paavo Nurmi's time. The dude was just trying to survive the winter by throwing coal into his furnace all night and running in 5 pound shoes.

Literally!!!

These people taught us.

ironside wrote:

"... golden age of white distance running." A white power post. Interesting who is considered white. Seb Coe, his paternal grandparents were Jewish immigrants. Seb Coe had a maternal Indian grandmother.

Oh shut up. Whites are going to represent something like 1 in 100 of the world's population in just 50 years time and be a minority in every country in Western Europe AND the USA. What more do you want? And it's no more 'white power' than people referring to a 'resurgence' in African running and the like.

And Coe's grandmother was Indian (who are actually an INDO-European people).

Quick question, is the finish line marked by the white box? There was some interesting timing on that race, if you look at the version in the link above the clock runs to 1:41.9 then jumps back to 1:41.72 but another clearer version shows Coe crossing the line in 1:41.5 before flashing 1:41.72 this would indicate this time is about right. I have wondered that back in those days a time lag occurred between the starter pulling the trigger and the "bang." Today this is instantaneous but athletes circa 35+ years ago were probably cheated out of 0.2s at non-important events.

Dope Train wrote:

I believe that blood transfusions were not banned until post 1984 (after the notorious cycling incident at the 1984 games

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-01-19/sports/sp-8183_1_federation-board

). Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! There has always been talk, whether that be unsubstantiated rumours or not, that Coe used blood transfusions to enhance his performances. Many feel his bout of toxoplasmosis is linked with this. Not sure why his time wasn't busted apart in the late 90s / early '00s though - perhaps the 1500m / mile were favoured in this era.

Well even if this were true we're talking about the 800m. If Coe was blood doping, and considering that he started off as a talented 800m runner, surely his 1500m/Mile times would have been even better? Not to mention he ought to have been able to pop up to the 5000m and threaten records there too aka Aouita.

And if blood doping/EPO helped the 800m so much, why did 800m times drop in the early 90's just when EPO was getting the 1500/Mile/5000 records smashed out of the park?

3hr-marathoner wrote:

Not to knock the 800m (I'm a fan of the distance) but it's sandwiched between the relatively more prestigious 400m sprint and the 1500m/mile so I had the impression that a lot of the would-be top talent for the distance was siphoned off by those events. For instance, has a 43.x 400m runner ever taken a serious shot at the 800m?

I disagree with that.

I agree the 1500m has always been the most popular event aside from the 100m, which is why they call it the 'blue ribband event', but that has benefited the 800m due to 1500m runners continuing to race in the 800m (and the drop off in 800m times coincided with the change of the timetable to 1500/5000).

I doubt if the 400m is more popular than the 800m to the general public. I think more people associate Alberto Juantoreno with his 800m achievements even though he was a 400m gold medal winner and ran that event his entire career and the 800m really only for 2 years.

The 800m is a fantastic and unique event, being almost a sprint and yet tactical and long enough to grab the viewer's attention and really be an experience and not over in a flash.

Also, it's the one event that Europeans, Afro-Americans (and other West African decent runners) and Kenyans and East Africans all appear to be competing on roughly equal terms.

A dominant 400/800 runner would be a legend on the Usain Bolt level, and just as Juantorena was even though his peak lasted only 2 years and one Olympics. He would straddle both sprints and middle-distance. Believe me, if sub 44 400m runners like Johnson, Reynolds, Watts could have moved up to 800m and competed never mind broken 1:42 with a bit of training, they would have.

Look how easy Coe runs 1:44 flat right at the start of the season in 1981 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5zTzMciyxw

In 1981 he could have ran 1:41 almost at will. If he had been presented a million dollar prize challenge of running ten 1:41 800m races that season he likely could have done it.

In 1981 he made one attempt on his own 800m WR and smashed it, running 1:41.7 (or more likely, 1:41.5) on an 80's track, running solo for half the race and having to run around the pacemaker. He made one attempt on his own 1000m world record and smashed it running 2:12 which most people regard as the equivalent of a 1:41 800m.

Oh, and he also ran a 3:47.3 Mile that same year, which a lot of experts think he was good for a 3:44 with better pacing.

Kipketer struggled to break 4 minutes for the Mile in his career when he was trying to break Coe's 800m mark with almost every race he ran at his peak.

Imagine if in the winter of 1980/81 Coe had just single-mindedly decided to focus solely on breaking 1:41 for the 800m and forget about the 1500/Mile for a couple of years?

Treasure in Clay wrote:

However consider what Ryun, Snell, and Keino ran on grass, clay, cinder, and sometimes slightly harder surfaces! They had next to nothing in the way of medicine

Oh, come on, get a clue. The sport will be honest when the fans know what the F they are talking about.

Amphetamines are THE BEST PED THERE HAS EVER BEEN. And still are, but you can't get away with them if there's in-competition testing. Which there wasn't, when guess-who were competing and smashing all the records.

6 lane tracks can't be trusted? Please....

I believe Coe was handtimed at 1:41.7

This is the link with the clearer image and running clock in the last 80m.

I'd be happy to continue to slam you on this issue. You have a registered name, but you are too chickenshit to go toe to toe with me with your registered name. Number of white people in the world in fifty years. That was not the point you were making.