Why have 800m times progressed much slower than any other distance?

800ftw. wrote:

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

6 x 800 can never be an aerob workout that really gives an extra add to aerob power. And remember ......I am not coaching 400m......I coach 800m up to Ultra. But I think I should be able to coach good even at 400m.....but that is a different story. ;) And I am not Asbel of course......but I know him and he knows who I am threw internet. By the way ....I chatted with him last evening. He told he think Kenya have a new star-runner on 1500m on his way. A young guy that will race tomorrow in Monaco. And it is of course not Canova`s guy Kwemoi he meant.

COACH J.S

Believe me you would be an absolutely terrible 400m coach.

where is the like button?

Coevett wrote:

Why have 800m times progressed much slower than any other distance?

There is only so much hate that the human body can hold.

TrackCoach wrote:

I will also point out that starting in the late 80s, the 800 took such a precipitous drop off across the board that I suspect something was afoot. Starting in the late 80s, 1:44x would win just about ever world class race. There were a couple fast 1:42x races, but it was not until Wilson Kipketer that we was saw the 800m performances start to equal the early to mid-80s.

Yes, that's an interesting point. Looking at the all time list there is hardly any times from the early 90's in the top 100 apart from a couple of Johnny Grey runs, and yet quite a few from the 80's.

That also is maybe skewed by a small number of individuals. Coe, Cram, and Cruz - I think all effectively ended their careers in 88 or 89, and the runners who were coming through to replace them such as Konchella and Ereng suffered injury or health problems.

As I've argued previously, the end of the 80's represented the end of the golden age of white middle-distance running. The thing that the drop off in 800m times after 1989 proves is that the sudden improvement in 1500m times was EPO fuelled. This also likely had an effect on the 800m times too. Guys like EL G powered by EPO would move up to the 5000m rather than drop down to 800m where the new wonder drug which was helping him smash WRs out of the ball park had little effect. The timetable was quickly changed to accomodate 1500/5000 doublings making the 800/1500 impossible. This must also have had an effect on 800m times. Lastly, talented British middle-distance runners such as Matthew Yates, David Sharpe, Curtis Robb, who had probably not completely dissimilar talent to the British generation that preceded them simply gave up or lost motivation when racing a horde of African cheats.

Good points there! :) And what I remember from his training it was often 5 km distance workouts at longest and they were not easy runs. He didn`t like to run easy.

BECAUSE IT FRIGGIN SUCKS

Also, not many people in the history of the world have been able to run on pure hate for an entire 800m race.

David Rudisha came close, but there was about 3 seconds where, of you look closely, you can see that he wasn't running on pure hate. It was something like a 90/10 mix, like adding ethanol to good gasoline.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

I think that if a runner like van Niekerk moves up to 800m we will see the first man sub 1.40 at 800m......many people say his stride don`t suits 800....but I disagree with that. And I think he is the best choice because he is used to long repetitions in training.

WVN's 100 and 200 times clearly indicates he very is very much a sprinter, which means the 400m is his longest racing distance. He could probably hang on for a 500 or even a 600 it he only goes out in 47, but would be completely lactic at around 600m in addition to a type of tiredness he not conditioned for. With that said, he could probably run 1:48 off of his current training and perhaps 1:46 is he trained for the 800, but why brother.

I have trained some sprinters who successfully moved up to the 800m, but they were usually high school kids who usually weren't pure sprinters to begin with. As a rule of thumb, the faster they were in the 100m, the more difficult the transition was. The muscles required for explosiveness are somewhat counter productive for the 800, they simple don't react well beyond 300m. And, in the case of WYN, he is a sub-10 100m sprinters which suggest he is what I call a pure sprinter.

"... golden age of white distance running." A white power post. Interesting who is considered white. Seb Coe, his paternal grandparents were Jewish immigrants. Seb Coe had a maternal Indian grandmother.

Juha Vätäinen,European champ, Finland ...did 10.9 on 100m . He became "transformed" to one of the worlds best 5000/ 10000m runners. WvN runs a second faster at 100m.......very strange if he couldn`t be transformed to just one more lap extra compared to his WR 43 sek at 400m and that 100m,200m, 300m WR, 400M WR - speed! With me as coach he had run sub 1.40. But as you say.....whatfor?.....he don`t have to run 800 to be a legend.....maybe will be the first sub 43 in London.

WvN`s muscles work without any difficulties at 1200m fast repetitions in training so it would be very strange they would not function up to 800m in a race if he was special trained for it.

Coes destroyed Jauntoreans record nearly 2 seconds and13 years later Kipketer destroyed Coes record by over half a second. If it wasnt for these 2 taking such huge amounts off the the pre exisiting records then there would be still time to play with. Thats why even Rudisha has only been able to take 2 tenths of Kipketers record. We just had two phenomenal talents in a row, in Coe and Kipketer.

The 800 is the most difficult race distance to pace correctly for maximum performance.

You run the sprints all out.

Even in the 400, you are barely holding back the first 200.

For 1500 and up, even pacing is most efficient, so you pick your goal pace and try to maintain it.

In the 800, you have a 1 to 3 second positive split difference from the first lap to the next. And every 200 is run slower than the preceding one.

That's true for probably every sub 1:43 ever.

Though, some runners are better with that 1 second difference while others are best with the 3 second difference. And each runner has to find which fits them best.

And you are running a fast pace in traffic. Any step that you chop or stride running wide hurts your overall time a lot.

I think a lot of 800 runners go their whole career without running their perfect race.

Look at all the runners that hit lifetime PRs in the 2012 London race.

Did Nick Symmonds have better 800m ability than Paul Ereng?

I also think runners specialize more now.

Besides Coe and Ovett, you had 1500, runners Cram and Peter Elliott than ran 1:42, mostly as a good speed workout for the 15.

Makhloufi put up a good time last year. Kiprop doesn't go for a fast 800 often.

El G and Lagat never tried to put up a good 1500 time.

That hurts the depth of fast potential 800 times.

I think the 800 talent has progressed even if the level of fasts times hasn't shown it.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

Juha Vätäinen,European champ, Finland ...did 10.9 on 100m . He became "transformed" to one of the worlds best 5000/ 10000m runners.

WvN runs a second faster at 100m.......very strange if he couldn`t be transformed to just one more lap extra compared to his WR 43 sek at 400m and that 100m,200m, 300m WR, 400M WR - speed! With me as coach he had run sub 1.40. But as you say.....whatfor?.....he don`t have to run 800 to be a legend.....maybe will be the first sub 43 in London.

The second faster at 100m makes the transition to longer distances dramatically more, not less difficult. Your claim that you and you alone could coach WVN to a sub 1:40 strikes me as not only ludicrous, but blatantly disrespectful towards the coaches who work with the world's elite 400 and 800 runners.

I don`t claim that I am the only coach who could coach WvN to a sub 1.40. I only say that I am sure I had done it. His very good coach mrs Bota is absolutely full capable to do that also if so was. And she is the one that goes "outside the box" with long repetitions for a sprinter that hardly someone else of the other topsprint coaches would do.

Not all world records are equal.

So you're starting from an unfair point in time

800 is the least doable event.

It was the maternal grandfather, actually. However, his maternal grandmother's roots go back a few generations to a rendezvous between a slave and the slave owner in.. Trelawney, Jamaica. You couldn't make it up if you tried.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/8711531/Sebastian-Coes-roots-go-back-to-sugar-cane-baron-who-kept-300-slaves.html

Some interesting comments about the 800m. His PBs from 100m-5000m (and a late 40s marathon) are listed on Wikipedia.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/more-sports/others/You-dont-choose-your-sport-the-sport-chooses-you-Sebastian-Coe/articleshow/49237565.cms?from=mdr

Top 100 athletes for the 1980 800m, if it helps. Oldest is no.44 Kenyan at 32, youngest Joaquim Cruz at 17 with a 1:47.85, 3.3 seconds off Don Paige at the USOT.

Coe is the lightest, at only 54kg. Moscow 4th placer is 57kg. Apart from no.87 Greek at 54kg and no.81 Turk at 59kg, everyone else is over 60kg, with two over 80kg, no.9 West German at 82kg, and no.76 American at 85kg (1.96m).

Why? Because 800m training is less rigorous now than it was 50yrs ago. That's why. Just examine the training regimens of Jim Ryun and Peter Snell and compare to the minimalist training regimens of today. Case closed.