Who's fault -- Sagan, Cavendish or the Tour?

MarathonMind wrote:

Sagan got DQ'd for cutting off Cavendish. He had plenty of room on the left to avoid the collision as the overhead shots clearly show. It's really not that hard to understand which is why it was the determination made by the TDF.

No, Cav was racing himself directly into a red cushion obstruction along the wall. Do try to keep up.

at first I was in agreeance that it was at least on Sagz shoulders...perhaps he could at least be relegated (as he originally was)...but after watching the slomos, of which I would love to see the previous 4-5s, I have completely changed my mind and can clearly see that NO WAY IN HELL should sagan have been dq'd. pure and utter bullsh**, no other way to describe it.

We all have a thing called peripheral vision. So you can see more than you indicate in your post. Cyclist know how to glance under their body while in the drops so he may have seen more than you think. But I won't argue that in an all sprint, but pros can do things others can't.

Any racer (cyclist in this case) knows that the opponent is attempting to pass to beat them to the finish. These boys know each other and thier capabilities very well. Sagan knew he was getting passed.

In cycling there is a rule to hold your line. Try a race and see how this is communicated between riders. Sagan's mistake was trying to jump Demare's wheel. That change (to the right) caused the crash. Cav was already on that line, following Demare and passing Sagan.

Also I have never been a Cavendish fan so don't even think that is motivation. One last thing, anyone who saw Rowbury weaving to the finish a few years ago can also guess why.

To me, it seems pretty clear it was Sagan's fault. Cav was already beside him, and that elbow was flagrant. Even if Sagan thought he were simply protecting his turf, I cannot imagine him, or anyone, doing what he did. At those speeds, it is almost inhuman. After all, it is still just a race. A broken back/death is not out of the question in that scenario.

We all have a thing called FORWARD vision. So you can see MUCH more than you indicate in your post. Cyclist know how to glance AHEAD their EYES LOOK DOWNWARD so he may have seen more than you think.

Those looking directly in front cannot use the excuse that they guy ahead of them should have used eyes in the back of their heads.

The red cushion is something Cav failed to realize was directly in the path he chose to ride along. He chose on his own--see the slow motion video links--to fall to the right and into the wall rather push to his left and into a crash with Sagan.

Not Sagan's fault. Cav's fault for creating a situation. Cav was crashing regardless of anything else happening in the race.

I think the race jury was also taking into account Sagan's aggressive shove on Griepel during the intermediate sprint. Sucks that he is out. He is the reason to watch cycling these days. Not looking forward to 2 1/2 weeks of Sky/BMC/Movistar just marking one another in the mountains until someone grows a set and decides to gamble. This is likely to be another boring Froome win where he attacks only in the final kilometer to gain 15-20 seconds here and there. I can't fault him but it's akin watching a runner of Kipchoge's caliber run 2:10 pace and kick for the win but never challenge the WR because...why? I'm only running for the winner's check.

outsiderunner wrote:

To me, it seems pretty clear it was Sagan's fault. Cav was already beside him, and that elbow was flagrant. Even if Sagan thought he were simply protecting his turf, I cannot imagine him, or anyone, doing what he did. At those speeds, it is almost inhuman. After all, it is still just a race. A broken back/death is not out of the question in that scenario.

Flagrant elbow? It didn't even touch Cavendish

The Guru Matt James wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

To me, it seems pretty clear it was Sagan's fault. Cav was already beside him, and that elbow was flagrant. Even if Sagan thought he were simply protecting his turf, I cannot imagine him, or anyone, doing what he did. At those speeds, it is almost inhuman. After all, it is still just a race. A broken back/death is not out of the question in that scenario.

Flagrant elbow? It didn't even touch Cavendish

https://twitter.com/Cyclingteamnew6/status/882292523837911042

Cav was already falling into the wall before any elbow movement. Watch the slo-play video that was posted. You'll see Cav falling over and then face plating into a cushion along the wall. Cav is very lucky that was a soft cushion and not something would have caused more serious injury. But, Cav braced for the worst because he had no idea what he was crashing in to.

Sagan knew he was getting passed.

Video of Incident wrote:

A time of incident.

Thanks for the video clips!

The Guru Matt James wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

To me, it seems pretty clear it was Sagan's fault. Cav was already beside him, and that elbow was flagrant. Even if Sagan thought he were simply protecting his turf, I cannot imagine him, or anyone, doing what he did. At those speeds, it is almost inhuman. After all, it is still just a race. A broken back/death is not out of the question in that scenario.

Flagrant elbow? It didn't even touch Cavendish

https://twitter.com/Cyclingteamnew6/status/882292523837911042

Sagan full-on shoulder-checked Cav. Out and out blatant, rubbish move. Adios, Sago!

actual cyclist wrote:

Sagan full-on shoulder-checked Cav. Out and out blatant, rubbish move. Adios, Sago!

Cav was already on his way into the wall, or at least into a red thing on the wall. Please watch the slo-motion video replay that was provided. Cav chose a racing line of doom. His fall was self-inflicted.

MarathonMind wrote:

Sagan knew he was getting passed.

exactly.

Actually, Cav knew he was going to crash into an obstacle along the wall.

As an 100% unbiased person, I think this is after watching videos from many different angles about 20 times, Sagan is at fault. Clearly cuts Cav off from what I see, and after already making contact with him swings an elbow while he's already falling so that if he wasn't he would knock him off balance AT LEAST if not over.

Idk what warents a DQ in this sport since I never watch so no opinion on that, just don't see how people are actually excusing Sagan here....

Sagan will be on the start line tomorrow. UCI notorious for bad calls.

Gotta bee wrote:

As an 100% unbiased person, I think this is after watching videos from many different angles about 20 times, Sagan is at fault. Clearly cuts Cav off from what I see,.

you need to watch the slo-mo replay video link and watch it until you see Cav crashing into something on the wall. There is no chance Cav was not going to hit that. He was not in a position to avoid crashing. Elbowing would not have made a difference. Cav was on a line to crash.

To some degree I equate this situation and fallout with fights in hockey. You pay someone 2 million dollars a year and cheer their name even when they're the worst skater and shot maker in the league because they're tough and pay back opponents physically, yet when someone gets seriously hurt in a fight we wag our finger in shame. In cycling, guys that have no shot to contend for the tour championship make millions to be wound up and released for their 30 seconds of glory 4 or 5 times a tour, risking their health each time. We talk about the best sprinters as if this is simply part of the sport when it has nothing to do with who is the best GC rider. "A crash is a crash" says Cavendish, but what kind of sick pattern are we enabling here?

cav knew he was crashing wrote:

you need to watch the slo-mo replay video link and watch it until you see Cav crashing into something on the wall. There is no chance Cav was not going to hit that. He was not in a position to avoid crashing. Elbowing would not have made a difference. Cav was on a line to crash.

All that may well be true, but what bothers me most is Sagan's right elbow flying out like that. Assuming Cav made contact with him, Sagan should have been pushed off-balance over to his left side. If you are falling left, you don't stick out your right elbow to try to regain balance, you throw out your left elbow. He did just the opposite.

Cav was already on his way down before the elbow came out.