Does going sub 20 in the 5k take any degree of talent for a female?

phidipidippides wrote:

Precious Roy wrote:

Sub 20 for women is probably closer to 17 for men. I live in a huge city and can count on both hand the number of women who run sub 20 in town who were not scholarship athletes in college.

Sub 20 for women is not like sub 17 for men, physiologically. It's much more like 18, women's running just isn't as deep. The men's and women's world records are just over 90 seconds apart, no reason a woman should be 3 minutes slower than an equivalent performance for a man when the top women are only half that far away.

Definitely. Non elite women simply don't train or try as hard as a rule. Men always have a higher degree of wanting to demonstrate physical prowess on average.

Worth 18 wrote:

phidipidippides wrote:

Sub 20 for women is not like sub 17 for men, physiologically. It's much more like 18, women's running just isn't as deep. The men's and women's world records are just over 90 seconds apart, no reason a woman should be 3 minutes slower than an equivalent performance for a man when the top women are only half that far away.

Definitely. Non elite women simply don't train or try as hard as a rule. Men always have a higher degree of wanting to demonstrate physical prowess on average.

Thanks for that super-important PSA. Can we now get back to helping this nice woman with her training?

Lady somewhere wrote:

Worth 18 wrote:

Definitely. Non elite women simply don't train or try as hard as a rule. Men always have a higher degree of wanting to demonstrate physical prowess on average.

Thanks for that super-important PSA. Can we now get back to helping this nice woman with her training?

That was helping. This nice woman needs to try harder as part of her training and racing.

You are looking for 20 min in 5 k......the 8 miles is your long run. The thing is to run threshold intervals......you don`t need tempos right now.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

You are looking for 20 min in 5 k......the 8 miles is your long run. The thing is to run threshold intervals......you don`t need tempos right now.

My long runs in training right now are currently around 10-11 miles. I ran a half marathon last week (Just for a geg really- didn't train for it/take it seriously obviously because I'm not specifically training for a half the same way I'm aiming for a fast 5k though).

I've tried quite a few training plans in the past which have just led me to plateau, I'm starting to think that my cardio capacity is the main culprit there though. It's always my breathing that limits my ability to push harder In shorter races so I have pretty much been focused on vo2 work as my speed workouts the whole time I've been running. I suppose the fact I smoked for ten years might be to blame there (quit a year ago) so I'm hoping staying smoke free will lead to better aerobic response im the long term/upcoming years.

I don't mind giving your plan a go (70% easy milage 30% threshold intervals)- it sounds pretty solid. I will try this for a couple of months then get back to you.

There was also a sub 20 lady who posted earlier on in the thread who mentioned progression runs starting near M/HM pace leading up to near tempo/race pace. I'm also going to give that a try maybe bi-weekly, sounds like an appealing workout.

There is very little difference between 5k and half training. So many people run a half and use the not training specifically excuse.

Smoking actually has performance enhancing benefits so don't use that excuse either. Having a hard time believing you were training productively while smoking for years though.

OP - I'm stocky, short, un-talented, and a guy. It took me 56 miles per week before I could go sub-20, 70 miles per week before I could go sub-19:30. If you're anything close to the female version of my lack of talent, I suggest something between 55 and 70 miles per week.

In the loop wrote:

I'm an old, fat, asthmatic dude, but I can give you some basic info since I took up running later in life and my 5k PR is just under 20 minutes at bmi of 25.

When I ran 19:45 I was able to run a 5:30 mile and a sub-1:30 HM. I was running one or two times per week with faster runners. We did hill sprints, Indian runs, stepped intervals (800, 1200, 1600, and back down). My overall mileage was about the same as yours. I could do a half dozen track repeats of 400m at 80s each and could easily break 30s for a single 200m in trainers.

The only non-collegian/hs competitive female runners I've known who could drop under 20 minutes for 5k had a lot of talent and put in the work.

Haha. That's funny. "...could easily break 30s for a single 200m." Funny because it's just a pipe-dream for me. When I ran my PR (19:23), I could only manage 34.xx for 200. I'm even less talented than this self-admitted old, fat asthmatic dude. Hilarious.

Nice try. Kind of funny I guess, slipping that bit of wisdom into your post. (smoking as a performance enhancer). Are you Mike Pence?

Not an excuse. Just pointing out my strengths and weaknesses so I can get the right kind of advice- and I'm willing to work like hell on all of them provided I get some smart advice to work with. But I can tell you now, during the ages of 20-23 I was running five times a week maybe about 40 weeks per year (so, not super consistently) and I was smoking on and off, every time I put the ciggies down my running times would plummet. Breathing is and always has been my number one limiting factor.

Possibly could be a coach wrote:

Nice try. Kind of funny I guess, slipping that bit of wisdom into your post. (smoking as a performance enhancer). Are you Mike Pence?

You can research the studies on that.

I don't have much genetic speed talent, but I do have the motivation talent. Work with what you have instead of looking for what you don't. P.S. BMI is bullshit.

My advice: more miles and more rest. It takes me at least 60 mpw in general to have sub-20 times, so generally I hover in the 20s unless specifically training for something. It took me 70+ mpw to break 19. How do you rest while adding miles? I take at least 1 day off per week and run my easy runs at a true easy effort. If you really have to run 7 days a week, really be careful with your easy/recovery pace.

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

I don't have much genetic speed talent, but I do have the motivation talent. Work with what you have instead of looking for what you don't. P.S. BMI is bullshit.

My advice: more miles and more rest. It takes me at least 60 mpw in general to have sub-20 times, so generally I hover in the 20s unless specifically training for something. It took me 70+ mpw to break 19. How do you rest while adding miles? I take at least 1 day off per week and run my easy runs at a true easy effort. If you really have to run 7 days a week, really be careful with your easy/recovery pace.

I have a little bit of natural speed, although not much- I'm pretty motivated too and dont mind hurting. I definitely think I'm capable of a 20 min 5k with the right training. But as it stands, I just lack the endurance and lungs right now. I run 5-6 times per week. I have never ran more than 45 MPW and I am currently on less milage than that right now (20-30 MPW) and in 23ish shape. I am going to spend the next 6 months building endurance and doubling my current milage.

It's always interesting speaking to other female runners, especially more experienced. How long did it take you to build up to 70 MPW?

Yezzy wrote:

Dennis T Reynolds wrote:

Have you raced shorter/longer races before? What kind of times are you putting up in those?

100m 14.7

400 1:20

800 2:55

Mile 6:11 (current fitness is 6:35 as I did a time trail the other day)

1.5 mile 10:00

5k 22:30

10k 47

HM 1:47

With a 14.7 100m you have sufficient natural speed to break 20. Looks like your weakness is aerobic. I would build up weekly mileage to a consistent 50 a week. Mostly easy running with 2 to 3 hard sessions a week, long run of 90 mins. What worked well for me when I was sub 20 was 1) 10 to 15 x 200m at 35s 200 walk recoveries 2) 3 or 4 x 1000m at best effort 5 mins recovery 3) under distance race weekly 1500m or 3000m. If you haven't got weekly races then do serious time trials.

Be patient. You will have breakthroughs. Like taking a minute off 5k time etc. Don't rest up for weekly races, only for a serious 5k race.

With your speed, you've got lots of room to improve. I ran close to 16 minutes (I'm a guy) with a slower 100m time.

Things to consider:

1. Never smoke another cig. This is a no brainer.

The rest of my thoughts are entirely overriding principle that you listen to your body and adjust as necessary:

2. Slowly build the mileage up. 45 mpw is not very high, especially if you were only there for a short period of time. Try to get to the point where 45 is an easy week, and you're at 55 most weeks.

3. Don't push the easy runs. Let the pace come to you. You'll probably find some days are super slow (you may find yourself running 10 minute miles the day after a hard workout). Other days you'll feel great and may end up easing into sub-8:00 pace by the end.

4. Focus the hard efforts on 4 types of workouts (maybe 2 per week or 3 if you're feeling great...since you are young, you probably recover faster than old guys like me):

a. Threshold effort runs: I like to mix it up, some days straight tempo for 20ish minutes, other days repeat 1000-2000m with short recovery.

b. Steady runs: For you, 7-8 miles is probably reasonable. Ease into the first mile or 2. Run the remainder around current 5k pace+1:00/mile.

c. Date pace->goal pace intervals: I like interval workouts where you start with longer reps at your current date 5k pace and finish with shorter stuff at goal pace. An example for you might be something like 1600m 7:15, 2x1200m 5:15, 3x800m 3:20, 4x400m 95 with 400m jog between everything. I probably would drop the volume the first few times you do this (maybe only 1 1200m, 2 800s, 2 400s or something).

d. Easy fartlek runs with some short hill sprints and striders (full recovery, nothing lasting over 20 seconds or so).

Above all, learn to be in tune with your body and don't be a slave to a schedule.

Trackbot! VDOT 19:59 5k

VDOT for 19:59 5km: 49.9

Equivalent race times based on VDOT:

Marathon: 03:11:05

Half marathon: 01:31:44

15K: 01:03:42

10K: 00:41:25

5K: 00:19:58

3Mi: 00:19:15

2Mi: 00:12:29

3200m: 00:12:25

3K: 00:11:34

1Mi: 00:05:51

1600m: 00:05:49

1500m: 00:05:25

I am a bot. Info: habs.sdf.org/trackbot

Sounds like a job for rcjason

http://run-fit.com/

OP, have you thought about using an elliptical machine to cross-train? I'm sure the LRC fan boys will have something to say about that, but if your lungs are the problem and you're having to build up mileage (thinking increased mileage = increased injury), an elliptical machine is a great way to stay in shape. I have chronic hip issues and the elliptical machine is a Godsend during flare-ups. Very low impact. My resting heart rate is so low that I'm not allowed to give blood. :)