why do Jack Daniels M pace workouts destroy me?

Can you post an example of a cycle. I would like to see it please

These replies are pretty spot on, the only thing I would add is that if you want to do the M pace workouts, you have to do more mileage. It sounds like your long run (10ish miles) is doubling as your M pace workout. And that's not really reasonable on a relatively low mileage plan. And that's fine, you don't necessarily need higher mileage for a non-competitive season, but if you had the time, increasing your mileage would likely make those M pace sessions more tenable.

HS Coach Jr wrote:

vO2max: Improved vO2max isn't correlated with improved running performance and people can improve 3k and 5k performance without improving their vO2max. The velocity someone can run at their vO2max does correlate with performance but this is basically just saying that faster runners are faster. Moreover, vO2max workouts haven't been shown to be the best way to improve vO2max velocity. Do they improve it? For some people, but other training methods work too.

VO2max is the the most important physiological variable determining performances in races of 1500 to 5000 meters. Improving VO2max or for us aging runners, slowing down VO2max decline, involves training at VO2max intensity. I've been training & racing for 35 yrs and have been doing a weekly VO2max workout (intervals or TTs) every week of every month of every year...come rain, sleet, snow or hot, muggy temps.

Now in my late 50s, I'm more of a "low-mileage Larry" type runner (lots of cross & weight/strength training), but stiil get in my weekly VO2max workout, which is almost a third of my weekly mileage these days. These workouts keep my cardiovascular system in top condition & help slow down cardiac degenerative changes (RHR of 48), are quick & efficient (more time for other things) and keep me fairly competitive with most other runners in my age-group (my age-graded times are also fairly decent). Of course, when I was younger I ran much more mileage but kept cranking out those killer weekly VO2max workouts nonetheless. And now, VO2max workouts are keeping this old cat content 👌.

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

For XC, I have my guys do a grand total of zero tempos over the summer. Seriously. Their very first tempo of the year is after our first meet. We are a pretty "delayed" program in that sense. I use marathon-pace stuff over the summer instead.

This sounds perfect, and if I were still coaching, it's exactly what I would do. I know people, including JD, say that T-paced workouts are "comfortably hard," but unless you're really feeling fresh, they're really quite tough. With M-paced running, you feel like you always have another gear that you could throw down, without really straining to do it. Stride mechanics are also pretty similar to what you'll be doing at faster paces.

VO2max Old Guy wrote:

Now in my late 50s, I'm more of a "low-mileage Larry" type runner (lots of cross & weight/strength training), but still get in my weekly VO2max workout, which is almost a third of my weekly mileage these days.

As a fellow "old guy," I would be interested in seeing your training schedule. A few of us post weekly on the over-50 training and racing thread every Sunday.

I recently completed a half-marathon training cycle in which I included a VO2-max workout in every 9-day cycle. Midway through the 18-week schedule, I ran an age-graded PR for 5K. (I had previously trained pretty seriously in my early 20s and in my early 40s). And I believe dedicated training at 3K to 5K pace really helped in reaching my half-marathon goal, too.

Regarding marathon-pace runs, I am looking at Pfitzinger marathon schedules now, and see that he includes a lot of MP miles, starting very early in the 18-week plan. Ugh. I struggle with tempo runs, but can do them ... I like VO2max-pace workouts ... I enjoy slow easy runs ... But I loathe running at marathon pace. Just can't seem to manage it. Except on race day.

800 dude wrote:This sounds perfect, and if I were still coaching, it's exactly what I would do. I know people, including JD, say that T-paced workouts are "comfortably hard," but unless you're really feeling fresh, they're really quite tough. With M-paced running, you feel like you always have another gear that you could throw down, without really straining to do it. Stride mechanics are also pretty similar to what you'll be doing at faster paces.

What? If you're doing a tempo run and feel like you don't have another gear (or two gears) you can throw down at any point, you aren't actually doing a tempo run.

I have seen this conversation quite a few times on this board. I get where you are coming from, but I tend to feel the same way as 800 dude, particularly in the latter stages of a straight 20 minute tempo run. I can do cruise intervals at T pace just fine, but by the end of a straight tempo run the perceived effort is much greater. How do I know the pace is right? Well, among other things (I) it corresponds to the pace prescribed by the vdot tables, (ii) it is right between my 15k and half marathon pace, (iii) it reflects the same perceived effort as when I simulate a tempo effort on the elliptical using the elliptical heart rate monitor as a guide (getting to around 90% max heart rate).Tempo efforts are just more challenging for some people. They always have been for me.

Some advice wrote:

800 dude wrote:This sounds perfect, and if I were still coaching, it's exactly what I would do. I know people, including JD, say that T-paced workouts are "comfortably hard," but unless you're really feeling fresh, they're really quite tough. With M-paced running, you feel like you always have another gear that you could throw down, without really straining to do it. Stride mechanics are also pretty similar to what you'll be doing at faster paces.

What? If you're doing a tempo run and feel like you don't have another gear (or two gears) you can throw down at any point, you aren't actually doing a tempo run.

I also find 20-minute tempos also grueling, if done alone. One alternative I mix in once a month or so is a 20-30 minute run up a mountain, gaining 1-2000'. Somehow having the hill taunting me with every step keeps me focused and motivated, and I actually think it is good for strengthening my calves and achilles for track sessions.

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

Besides, too much tempo running (which a lot of bad college teams do) get diminishing returns after awhile.....both psychologically and physically.

Could you elaborate on this (not the psychological side)? Are you saying that there is a steeper DR to Tempo work than other training paces like say M pace, since you seem to include a steady diet of that for a very extended period?

Smoove wrote:

I have seen this conversation quite a few times on this board. I get where you are coming from, but I tend to feel the same way as 800 dude, particularly in the latter stages of a straight 20 minute tempo run. I can do cruise intervals at T pace just fine, but by the end of a straight tempo run the perceived effort is much greater.

How do I know the pace is right? Well, among other things (I) it corresponds to the pace prescribed by the vdot tables, (ii) it is right between my 15k and half marathon pace, (iii) it reflects the same perceived effort as when I simulate a tempo effort on the elliptical using the elliptical heart rate monitor as a guide (getting to around 90% max heart rate).

Tempo efforts are just more challenging for some people. They always have been for me.

On the elliptical, do you get the same feeling that perceived effort is getting much greater by the end of 20 minutes, and yet your heart rate stays consistent?

It is a little hard to say. My heart rate takes a few minutes to get up into the desired range, but after that it stays steady. My cadence and stride length remain the same throughout. I think the effort is more constant on the elliptical once I get into the desired range though, to be honest; and I can usually maintain the effort longer on the elliptical because I am able to distact myself with music, a book on my iPad and/or TV.

But I have been running since 1990, so I am pretty in tuned with my body and perceived effort. When I am on the elliptical, I can usually guess my heart rate based on how I feel before I use the machine to measure it. So, while it is a little self-serving to say it, I am fairly confident that the effort on my tempo efforts is fairly close to the effort on my elliptical sessions (although I do sometimes admittedly get carried away on tempo days).

I am with 800 dude and Smoove: the perceived effort of T pace is tough. I have done it both straight and in long LT intervals (3x2, 2x3, 2x4, 4x2) and those are tough workouts...very draining. Somehow, though, they give me the creeps slightly less than do VO2max intervals (especially in hot weather). Perhaps this is more psychological than anything else, as I was never a track guy...and Smoove certainly was/is a track guy.

Great thread here. Thanks for starting it, OP.

One other thing...Sub-14 guy: you are a smart man, both a traditionalist and an innovator, and your coaching approach is steeped in common sense.

You do see the inconsistency in these two paragraphs, right?

Have you ever tried wearing a HR monitor on a 'normal' 20:00 tempo run where perceived effort rises significantly to directly compare it with the elliptical, where you know you stay consistent?

Have you ever tried (and succeeded) in running tempo at a slightly easier effort (not pace) than you're used to and compared how well you recover to a normal tempo day?

You cherry picked a little there - you ignored the fact that I gave some explanation as to why I thought I was able to go longer and feel more even keeled on the elliptical. You also cherry picked from one of three tests that I described as using to ensure I was at the right pace (I also didn't bother to mention the other two tests - my ability to speak, but not hold a conversation and my ability to maintain a less-than-race-effort breathing pattern - because I figured the other three explanations would suffice).

I certainly suppose that despite all of the indicators, the fact that I find tempo efforts really hard could mean that I am doing them too fast because the perceived effort test starts to fall apart by the late stages of the tempo effort. But as a guy who has been doing this for a long while, and using the same general principles the entire time, I really don't think that to be the case.

I don't think that it is all that incredible that many people find work at tempo pace to be more challenging than others - we all have our own strengths, weaknesses and preferences as runners.

Former Sub 14:00-

A couple questions on your coaching. You had mentioned Magness in your previous post and I made up my own 5K training routine using his philosophies for the remainder of the year (peak race in December). Magness really stresses individualization. For example, I've determined I'm really mostly a FT guy so I don't think the traditional training routines work for me. I'm trying "new to me" types of workouts and approaches based on an FT guy... That being said do you separate your team based on FT/ST and if so, how do differentiate their workouts?

Thanks

Smoove and 800 dude: I agree with you two about tempo running seeming more difficult than they are sometimes. That psychological component is really key and translates great to racing XC. A big reason why I do tempo running so late in my program is to allow the marathon-pace work to do its job and transition them smoothly into tempo running. That way it is much easier for them to handle both physically and psychologically.

Some advice wrote:

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

Besides, too much tempo running (which a lot of bad college teams do) get diminishing returns after awhile.....both psychologically and physically.

Could you elaborate on this (not the psychological side)? Are you saying that there is a steeper DR to Tempo work than other training paces like say M pace, since you seem to include a steady diet of that for a very extended period?

The diminishing returns on tempo running is not nearly as steep as other work. I say teams get diminishing returns on them frequently is because they do them throughout half the summer, through September, through October for some, and into November for a few programs as well. A ton of programs start them as early as the end of June. Obviously the emphasis on these types of workouts change as the season stretches onward, but after awhile your body will get used to the stimulus and stop making as steep of gains.

Marathon pace work is at a threshold that corresponds to the kind of work you will be doing with tempo running, while also keeping the stimulus different because it is slower and longer. It is something different. Also, the extended period of M-pace is not as long as it seems and I do go onto the next thing once I feel like Marathon pace has overstayed its welcome.

Jejdn: These are sample training weeks for my top 3 guys 2 seasons ago (it also shows how long we stay with stuff)

3rd week of July until 1st week of September look like this typically:

BASE PHASE:

M: 8m EASY, 6 strides/form drills

Tu: 2m w/u, 10 miles Steady State (5:30-5:40 average), 1m c/d

Wed: 13m w/ last mile 20 sec ON/40 sec OFF

Th: 8m EASY/4m double

Fr: 10m, 6 strides/form drills/4m double

Sat: 7m EASY

Sun: 18m w/ last 15 minutes progressively faster

**The last 3 weeks before our first race that Friday run becomes a fartlek. We do 3min ON/ and 2min OFF.

Our early season training we do this cycle. Starts early September, ends early October, it isn't that long:

EARLY SEASON

M: 8m EASY, 6 strides/form drills

Tu: 2m w/u, 6m TEMPO (5:05-5:10 average)..3min Recovery...8x60m HILL ALL OUT, 2m c/d

Wed: 13m w/ last mile 20 sec ON/40 sec OFF

Th: 8m EASY/4m double

Fr: 2m w/u, 12x150m HILL FAST, 2m c/d /4m double

Sat: 7m EASY

Sun: 18m w/ last 15 minutes progressively faster

M: 8m EASY, 6 strides/form drills

Tu: 2m w/u, 5x2k TEMPO (6:15-6:20 average), 1min recoveries....4x200m after, 1m c/d

Wed: 13m w/ last mile 20 sec ON/40 sec OFF

Th: 2m w/u, 10x 3 ON/2 OFF @ 10k effort, 2m c/d /4m double

Fr: 8m EASY

Sat: RACE...40min cooldown

Sun: 18m relaxed

These 3 guys ended up running 23:48, 23:59, and 24:03 for 8k that season.

The things that change a lot in my program are mostly the "competitive season" phase stuff. This stuff right here stays consistent and was pulled as a random example a couple of seasons ago. We don't do actual timed intervals until the last week of September or first week of October, its mostly in fartlek form until then. My "steady state" is the marathon-pace work. You notice its done every week for about 6 weeks or so until it becomes a tempo-type run. The progressive part of the Sunday run DOES often get down to that marathon-pace, so they still keep in touch with it. It isn't uncommon for my guys to be running around ~5:20 during those last 15min.

Thanks for posting this

Cherry-picking implies the parts I picked out are less important than the other aspects I didn't address, where in this case my position is that perceived effort and recovery are significantly more important indicators of the workout than a VDOT table or recent race results, and massively more important than an indicator like breathing pattern. I actually found your explanation for why you felt you were more even keeled on the elliptical one of the most compelling in why I think you do the running too hard, since you're paying less attention to pace, you're not pressing as much, particularly at the end (which you admit to doing in saying you tend to get carried away on tempo runs).

VDOT, and % of vVO2 methods for establishing tempo paces are not exact sciences and not intended to set training in stone, as you know. Similarly, race performances, while very useful in telling us what a person's fitness level is, does not tell the whole story. I could have multiple runners on my team who both ran the same time (and an honest pr) and still have them doing different pace ranges for a tempo run, because I know their effort level and the stimulus on their body is the same at different paces. I seem to recall you saying in the past you find you can race with people who do workouts you don't think you could complete, so this shouldn't be unfamiliar to you. Similarly, I have a fair number of (middle distance) athletes who wouldn't have a prayer of holding prescribed tempo pace for an hour in a rested, all-out race, yet the stimulus on the body for a 20:00 run or whatever we're doing that day can still be within the parameters of a tempo workout.

A tempo run is defined by its consistent, controlled yet relatively high demand on the cardiovascular system, and its demand on anaerobic energy systems that is modest enough to both create meaningful acidity in the blood, and not have said acidity rise size-ably over time. That defines a tempo workout, not that its 87% of vVO2, 90% of Max HR, some spot on a VDOT table, or the same as your 60:00 fitness. which are all guidelines we use to help establish how to get into those initial parameters.

To be clear, just because it doesn't sound (to me) like you are doing a true tempo run, doesn't mean what you are doing is wrong, or bad. If anything,

that you've had a good amount of success over the years indicates you are doing a good many things right.

Jeremy R wrote:

Former Sub 14:00-

A couple questions on your coaching. You had mentioned Magness in your previous post and I made up my own 5K training routine using his philosophies for the remainder of the year (peak race in December). Magness really stresses individualization. For example, I've determined I'm really mostly a FT guy so I don't think the traditional training routines work for me. I'm trying "new to me" types of workouts and approaches based on an FT guy... That being said do you separate your team based on FT/ST and if so, how do differentiate their workouts?

Thanks

Sorry about double posting, usually don't like doing it.

Yeah, we do individualize things a lot in track. For XC, the samples I showed are the general phases in XC before we hit the competition phase. These were my top 3 at the time, so their training is a bit different than everyone else. During these phases, the things that change is mostly the volume and paces for individuals. I encourage my athletes to speak with me weekly if they can over the summer so we can adjust things if need be. XC can afford to be a tad more general than track because you are trying to get PACK faster as a whole.

In XC, the 800-1500 pure guys (FT, no XC types) will do a down scaled version of their summer training in volume. We still keep the volume on hill rep days and focus on that a little more than the distance group. When they do the fartleks and interval sessions they do less volume but are told to keep up with the XC guys SOMETIMES. Most of the time I like them to work on that 8k-10k effort, but the occasions where I have them run the XC group paces it actually works out to being around 5k pace for them which is perfect at that time of year. Though they hate it, I still make them do two XC races throughout the year for training purposes and they usually perform okay (1:49-1:51 types running 25:10ish 8ks).

In track there is much more individualization. The main winter phases are largely similar to XC but the build up and push to the next phase comes quicker. In the middle of February we start to break off into groups.

800 pure group: These guys I have go to the sprint coach during the winter phase and then we collaborate throughout the season. The 800m at the top level is starting to become more 400/800m type guys.

800-1500 group: They do a downscaled phase in the winter like they did in the summer. When the break off happens, they do some tempo running, some 3k-5k pace work, and short hills in cycles. We mix in some very short all out running as well. Once we get into competition phase the 800 guys work primarily on their race pace, while also touching on 400m speed and 1500-3k speed. The 1500 guys go for 1500 race work, while touching on 800m speed and 5k strength. I have the two groups work out with the 5k group on their 3k-5k pace days.

1500-5000m group: When the break off happens, they focus on tempo running and their hills a lot, along with 1500m work. We still do a couple of all out hills after tempo runs to work on high speed occasionally. On days where they operate at 1500m pace or faster, we have them go with the 1500m group. When they do 10000m work or slower, they are with the 10k guys.

5k-10k group: A lot of stuff similar to XC and what I have described above. They do not do 1500m work with any of the other groups because I do not want them to get caught up in those paces. They occasionally are joined by other groups on tempos runs and their race pace work though. These guys do a good job of keeping the 1500m-5000m guys from going to fast on the pace work.

Steeple: Tricky event. We mostly have them workout with the 1500m-5k group. Every other 5k pace workout with that group becomes a 3k steeple pace workout. We alternate the reps where one is at 5k pace, the next one is over hurdles at 3k steeple pace. They do less volume during those days than the rest of the guys. They meet twice a week with me to do steeple drills and every 2 weeks we practice water jumps into either the long jump pit or over the actual water barrier into the water pit.

My weight program is more aggressive for the 800m, 1500m, and steeple runners.

Sorry if this is a little general. This is a rough example of how we separate them by groups and how they differ in track. Sample training weeks for every group for you to see would be way too long of a post.