Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
R-thoughts and M-insights wrote:
R. D. M. T Why the nerdy code?
So ridiculous. Daniels is so worthless as a training program if you're actually looking to improve under your own guidance. If you can handle it, it simply means you're durable and would be much faster on a different training plan. This is truth.
I love how all these people flock to it though....everyone I know who uses it modifies it so much because it doesn't produce results. okay
You sound mad. Anyways, we are discussing the principles and not following the program exactly as it is outlined. Since we are talking about Daniels, we use his own code when referring to his own training. His principles are pretty sound. It helped me improve a lot in college. I was a 4:29/9:35 guy in HS and ran 3:44/13:41 through similar principles.
I modified it for the college team I coach as well with race-specific stuff added in and better supplementary work. In my first year, a bunch of 25:50 XC runners became 24:40 guys and after a couple years we are consistently a bubble team for Nationals. 15:02 was the average 5k on the team back when I started and now it is 14:27 with usually a couple guys making NCAA regionals in track. If that isn't improvement, I don't know what is. The shit works.
I'm late to the party but I do have a question for former Sub 14. Do you actually incorporate sizable portion of M pace work during XC, or for 5k/10k group during track?.
My college coach was more of an Igloi type guy. Our team was made up of 24 high/ 25 low guys and we did 20 x 400 in 70, 10 x 1k in 3:00, 5-6 x 1 mile in 4:50-5:00 and 2 x 5k in 16:00 for staple workouts (all on grass). We also did road workouts (basically hard tempoes with separate warm-up and stretch beforehand) of 4 miles in 20:20 and 8 miles at 5:30 pace. Probably 1/3 of our miles were "easy" doubles of 4-6 mile at 6 flat to 6:30 pace. Long runs were generally 14-17 miles on mixed terrain run easy (7ish pace) down to 6 flat or so over last 5 miles. The one thing we never did was any work in what I'm guessing would have been our M pace zone of 5:30-5:50. Even when we did "progression" runs, we generally jumped straight from 6 flat pace down to 5:20.
For collegiate xc runners, what is the specific advantage of M pace runs and how do you work them into training cycle?
For XC, I have my guys do a grand total of zero tempos over the summer. Seriously. Their very first tempo of the year is after our first meet. We are a pretty "delayed" program in that sense. I use marathon-pace stuff over the summer instead. After they build up into peak mileage they will do one every single week until after our first meet. That gives them about 8-9 sessions before we move out of the base phase and into the "pre-season" phase. Most of us consider the season consisting of the two main invites in October to acquire at-large points to nationals, so September is still a transition month.
I do the same thing for track in the winter, except we ditch the marathon pace runs a lot sooner towards the end of indoor. Our indoor season is comprised of those type of workouts, hills, and using races for training in order to shift us into outdoor. People still PR off of XC fitness and this long aerobic stuff. It hangs around through December, January, and into the very start of February.
You can look up for yourself all the multitude of physiological/psychological factors of marathon-pace work and how it benefits you. It is long, so it works well with XC and 10k distances because it too is one long grind in of itself. It also is at the end of your aerobic system, so it allows us to segue nicely into the next stage of taxing that system: tempo running. The best training plans are progressive ones and this pace helps with progressing us to the next stage and not start it too soon. They definitely feel ready and usually crush tempos once they get implemented. Besides, too much tempo running (which a lot of bad college teams do) get diminishing returns after awhile.....both psychologically and physically.
I could post a sample of a cycle if you would like, but I think the biggest thing about what separates good teams from bad ones is the timing of workouts and how you actually do them. A lot of coaches have good training plans but they, and their runners, don't perform them correctly even though they think they do.