Harvard woes

Hands off the girls! wrote:

If you were parent of a very talented daughter that runs fast, would you send her to Harvard?

!

Nope

How did Lieberman put his foot in his mouth?

He stated someone had the best running form of anyone he has tested. Hate to break it to you, but you can have great form and not have great talent. Does not appear that Lieberman put anything in his mouth, you on the other hand put your head up your ass.

Also, none of the athletes in question were cut, they quit due to unrealistic expectations.

Typically, the Ivy XC rosters would list all of the mid- and long-distance runners on there, but not all of them would race. The mid-distance folks would just use the fall season for getting the mileage in, while it is the longer distance folks who really did the bulk of the racing and scoring. The mid-distance folks may race as the B-squad at some of the larger races, like Paul Short or a home XC (essentially, any meet where you don't have an entry cap). That's why the XC rosters appeared so large.

The article did not say if the athletes were cut - instead, it implied the athletes left the team.

Putting Wales-Dinan's past and the Flotrack WOW video aside, what's really interesting is how one group of students argue that the coaching staff persuades students to not take the most rigorous classes, followed by a premed student (so likely not cruising through easy class schedules) on the team declaring that the coaches are perfectly willing to accommodate individual schedules for academic conflicts "if you talk with them"

So while the concerns about his past may be legitimate, you also have two groups of students essentially declaring opposite versions of how the coaching staff conducts themselves

No kidding.

This problem is clearly not about "culture change" or "bringing the program to the next level."Erika Veidis was as 2:04 800m runner and multi-time Heps champ. Here's what she has to say:

“Even though it soon became clear that I was experiencing severe overtraining syndrome... I kept on accepting the guilt and doubt inflicted by coaches and teammates,” she wrote. “I kept pushing until my body gave out even more. My head coach, in an effort to strong-arm me into competing, told me that if I couldn’t run at Ivy League championships, then I was off the team.”

Combined with:

Four current and former student-athletes said Wales-Dinan has told women to lose what they consider an unhealthy amount of weight. They also allege that Saretsky and Wales-Dinan have allowed women to overtrain and miss meals.

I don't see how anyone could read that as pampered hobby joggers not wanting to work hard. This is a coach endangering his athletes.

It seems to me like the "culture change" might be how the coach is playing off actions that might be wrong and might have little to do with just making the team more competitive. Isn't it in the nature of a person who wants a cult-like following to say something along the lines of "Everything is fine. Some people are just upset I'm trying to make the team better". The guy could be completely swell, but it just doesn't sound like it.

I don't know what's going on with Harvard's team, but did Wales-Dinan ask these women to lose what they consider to be an unhealthy amount of weight or did he ask them to lose an unhealthy amount of weight?

HandWringingLiberal wrote: Yawn. Rich peoples problems.

You've got it. Crimson tears as rich people, entitled-9 snowflakes, "faculty fellows" and overlapping underhanded gender-bent bureaucracies and directorates pruriently pile on.

"In the last few years, criticisms of Wales-Dinan’s leadership travelled through a number of Harvard offices, including the College’s Title IX Office, the FAS human resources department, and the Athletic Department itself—even as faculty fellows also began their own formal review of the team. The uneven progress of the investigations began with Shanna Kornachuk, the Athletics Department’s assistant director and the program director for the track and cross country teams."

I don't know why the stress is on shrinking the program in order to get quality.

Since I've seen college cross-country and track decline in popularity in my lifetime, even as high school track has remained a high participation sport, I've come to feel that one answer might be to open up both men's and women's participation at the collegiate level to encourage a 27 runner women's team, and a men's team as large as would be allowed under Title IX. (Cut the number of male participants in football, the dementia producing sport, in low level DI, DII, and DIII schools to allow expansion of men's xc and track). What are the costs? Hire some part time assistants to run the practices of the slower runners, schedule these runners as a B team in a few local meets--you could even have them pay a uniform fee to defray the cost of the singlet. Meanwhile, the head coach still focuses on the elite team and takes them to the larger meets.

What you get in exchange is a student recruiting tool, a more active group of students who are generally better in the classroom as well, and then a dedicated alumni, more likely to support the school in general after graduation--and who knows, maybe a late maturing runner who starts on the B team and becomes a star.

Harvard, of course, doesn't have to worry about recruiting or alumni loyalty-- but other colleges and universities, could raise their participation rates at low cost, have a quality program, and get a lot of alumni support.

conflicted wrote:

ALittleHelpHere wrote:

What did happen in that Flotrack video?

He was very touchy with one of his athletes. Putting his arm around her bare waist and holding her...rubbing her back. She was supposedly not feeling well. But if he's like that even when a camera is on him, makes one wonder

Depending on the relationship he has with his athletes or this particular athlete, giving an athlete a hug is not a big deal at all even if the coach touches bare skin. Also, sometimes video or photos can make things look different than what it is. A newspaper photographer once took a photo which caught me and an athlete at the exact moment we hugging. A comment was made about it, but she was the one who hugged me. It was a very emotional situation because it was her decent performance since coming back from injury. Also, I had been this athlete's coach since she was running age group. Things are not always what they appear to be.

Bunny Boiler wrote:

censored vid wrote:

The video was censored by Flotrack shortly after it was published. The original included the touching by the coach, the censored one didn't.

He has an unnerving presence

Other than that...

I thought actually the administration described in the Crimson article could be justified. See, if the Harvard running team is seen as important for the whole image of this very prestigious University, its history and extensions, then I can see how they might want to spruce up that front a little bit.

But I'm not sure how many non-running Harvard stakeholders see the running team, in any given year, as crucial to the entire Harvard corporate and cultural image. Given Harvard's ties to many disciplines, national and global traditions and centuries long history, one could argue this is wasted attention.

Writing an essay about this matter could probably secure you an A.

I think the take away is we need to look at the big picture and the history. We can't sit and analyze one comment here and one comment there and say the girls complaining are mediocre runners who can't handle what it takes. I think Erika Veidis' comment speaks volumes, because no one can argue that she didn't have what it takes and is a whiner. Kudos to her for speaking out when she has nothing to gain except potentially helping future athletes. There are too many issues and complaints, past and present, about this guy. And there are too many other good and qualified coaches around for Harvard to keep this guy around.

It's not the pros wrote:

Uriel. wrote:

This says it all...

"We believe that he made it clear there was no place on the team unless you were ‘all-in’ and put athletics as your single highest priority."

What is wrong with asking your athletes to give a 100%? Storm in a teacup.

Nothing is wrong with giving 100% effort. But that doesn't mean you make the sport 100% of your life.

If you can't commit to the philosophy, go join a club team and have fun. Very simple.

Matt Fitzgerald and Shalane Flanagan would probably get fired as a head coaches if they asked the ladies to read their books on ideal racing weight and how to eat. They would complain that Matt and Shalane are asking them "to lose WHAT THEY CONSIDER to be an unhealthy amount of weight." And then some administrator would say they are threatening the physical safety of the students.

Sounds like he is probably asking the ladies for 50-60 mpw (when they might have been used to 35 mpw), eat healthy, cross-train, and get some sleep. Then students claim that this means they have to be "all in," and that he is invading their lives. Do they know Nick Saban has the diet of several of his players monitored very closely? Saban wouldn't last a day at Harvard (but nor would he want to).

Point is - he's got a good solid number of distance runners who are thriving under his coaching. He is winning championships. Let him recruit more with clear expectations of the workload, and see if he can keep bringing championships to Harvard.

title ix counting actually leads to an incentive to have large women's xc and track teams to counter-balance football, where you typically have 100-110 men. Cut football to a roster of 50, still more than two people for each position and about the size of a pro roster, and you wouldn't have as many problems leading to cuts in other men's teams.

TrackCoach wrote:

Depending on the relationship he has with his athletes or this particular athlete, giving an athlete a hug is not a big deal at all even if the coach touches bare skin. Also, sometimes video or photos can make things look different than what it is. A newspaper photographer once took a photo which caught me and an athlete at the exact moment we hugging. A comment was made about it, but she was the one who hugged me. It was a very emotional situation because it was her decent performance since coming back from injury. Also, I had been this athlete's coach since she was running age group. Things are not always what they appear to be.

Are you insane? I've coached a lot of kids, boys and girls, and I have never given a child I coach a hug. A "hands on" approach has no place in a relationship between an adult coach and their athlete. If you think your athlete needs touching, call their parents.

Why get into some murky weird grey area? It's easy to create bright lines of things you simply do not do as a coach - like: never date a person you have coached, ever. If a person, as a coach, can not separate their sexual feelings and allow themselves to feel attraction toward their athletes, they have no business being a coach. It's really not hard to create that separation - and if it is hard for you - do not coach.

You may all want to live in the a grey area where you "can't be sure it's wrong" - I just do not think it is in any way necessary. It's easy to stay out of the grey area. And when in doubt, err on the side of caution. There would never be a debate or uncertainty if a coach acted professionally at all times.

This seems to me to be a matter of disclosure.

This is Harvard. People attend there by and large for different reasons, and have different motivations, than, let's say, a school like LSU (nothing wrong with LSU, but it is a school which places lots of emphasis on athletics). The coach should be clear that he intends to run his program with the seriousness and dedication of a top flight Pac 12, SEC or Big 10 program. This would likely scare away some athletes and their parents, particularly because there are lots of reasons to go to Harvard other than to become a quasi professional athlete (especially in a marginal sport like cross country), but so be it. Disclose what your program is about, and how you intend to run it. The numbers are small, which doesn't surprise me - this is a tough task at Harvard (not that Harvard is necessarily more difficult in its academic challenge than other schools - rather - it is academically very resource rich and it is difficult to pass up utilizing those resources as opposed to living running 24/7). My guess is that this doesn't end well for this coach, although I don't wish him harm. Low numbers for female teams don't work for Title IX, and especially in the Harvard political environment

I attended a school somewhat similar - not ranked as high as Harvard, but one of the two top 10 News and World Report ranked schools which give athletic scholarships. This was long, long ago. The athletic scholarship, while necessary for me, really did inhibit taking advantage of the academic and networking resources at the school, which I do really regret. The problem is that I could not have gone there without the scholarship (single mother home, mother was losing her home at the time), so it makes no sense at this point to dwell on it. Bu the average Harvard student has parents and some support from home and hence choices I never could have imagined. I counsel students and their parents today to opt for academics over running - especially in today's employment environment where internships and the like are essential as well is keen academic focus - I rarely am listened to, unfortunately.

GENERATION SNOWFLAKE.

You mean to tell me there are some rich kid are Harvard who feel incredible entitled, and when they have to work extra hard - or their mediocre results are no longer tolerated - they have to go and get the big bad authority figure in trouble? What a shocker.

D1 sports are not clubs. If you have the club mentality, you will get club results. If you want the club atmosphere, START A RUNNING CLUB.

Here's how it goes at most schools looking to make a turn around...

Coaches/athletes treat it like a club >

Results are not good >

It becomes hard to recruit good athletes due to results >

Results continue to decline, program is seen as a club by serious athletes >

People complain about results without looking internally at the club culture >

New coach comes in and requires people to be committed >

Results improve >

Better recruits come in >

People who do not subscribe to the work hard philosophy generally find the door >

Door hits them in the backside on the way out and they become disgruntled >

Every 20 year old who has nothing to complain has to go find something new to complain about

Lived through it firsthand.