I am a 4:10 Guy in Practice, but a 4:25 guy in races

.......... wrote:

Hi Leo.

Funnies thing on this thread. 😏

FrustratedRunner232 wrote:

I just want to thank everyone again for all the information.

I posted this yesterday during my heightened frustration, but have since calmed down and been able to take a step back and really acknowledge that running is a process and not a quick fix, and i feel motivated to keep working hard, and be patient.

OP should keep it updated, but I doubt it would happen given all the inconsistent information posted.

It's March. They hand out zero conference or NCAA medals in March. Keep kicking the crap out of your teammates and stop kicking the crap out of yourself. Stop watching the watch. Just train and race. If you are truly a sub 25 8Ker (I must say I am skeptical) and a 1:53 800 runner, you are a coach's dream (and not a 4:10 guy; try 4:05 or better). The 4 lapper will take care of itself.

FrustratedRunner233 wrote:

I'm a senior now, last year as a junior I ran 4:11

I'm in better shape now or so I feel

Which is why I respectfully disagree with the people saying im only in 4:25 shape

I am not going to bother read through the whole thread. You are basing your workouts on your PRs - not your current fitness level. I used to run 5Ks a lot faster than I can now, so when I am working out, I won't follow the paces geared for my PR. All you are doing is burying yourself that way by as one of the first posters mentioned -racing the workouts.

How are your races going? Are you going out at 4:10 pace and then dying. Or going out at 4:15 and dying. Or just running 4:25 the whole way.

As a former 4:10 guy, I find it hard to believe you can only run 4:25 a year after running 4:11. Something is not right. I could see poor races of 4:14-4:20, but 4:25? 4:25 should be relaxed.

That said. I had races (in college) where I'd run 5-10 seconds slower and feel sluggish. Usually, these were dual meets where I'd start at a slower pace any way. Once I got later in the season, sharpening up and resting up, it'd work it's self out.

I don't think you are only capable of running 4:20 - 4:25 right now.

My theory is this: you are going into mile races with the personal expectation of running 4:10, that your a "4:10 guy."

Maybe you're getting into race and it feels like its going to be a 4:15 - 4:20 day. You get subconsciously discouraged that you'll need to put in a hard effort to get under 4:20 and you lose a bit of your edge.

Next thing you know you're well off the pace and it'll take everything you've got left to get under 4:20, so you don't kick it in as hard because, well, what's the point if you're not running close to 4:10. So you just keep it steady and come in at 4:20 - 4:25.

I'm guessing you're not 100% spent after. You're probably damn tired, but not completely spent.

All that's too say, you're probably currently in shape to run 4:10 - 4:15 if you can figure it out mentally. Once you taper a bit, 4:10 and under should be a possibility. Just don't be afraid to go out there, give your all, and not come up with a 4:10

I've seen soooooo many talented guys fall into this mental trap. One guy on my college team pretty much never ran between 4:20 and 4:40 in the mile. He was a sub-4:20 guy in high school, and if he wasn't going to hit sub-4:20, he'd either consciously or subconsciously give up. He wasn't personally comfortable with putting in a hard effort and not getting his time in return.

Another guy who a 15:15ish 5ker went out and ran a 8:45 3k early season one year. He said he was going to go for sub-15:00 at his next race, but then had a couple races at 15:10 - 15:20. It became a huge mental block, because he was convinced he was a sub-15:00 guy. So when he ran 15:10 PR, he didn't see that as a sign of encouragement, rather he was upset that he didn't get under, that his heat too slow, etc, etc. Never ended up braking 15:00 despite running an 8:35 3k.

All that is to say - don't get super hung up on the idea that you're a 4:10 guy when you're out on the track. Next race, go out and run 64's and try to run 4:15 - 4:20. Then, try going out in 63's. View it as a progression and take it one race at a time. If you don't hit those times, you're allowed to dwell on it and be upset for one hour, then its time to put it behind you.

Again, just a theory, hope this helps.

Ca$hclay wrote:

It's March. They hand out zero conference or NCAA medals in March. Keep kicking the crap out of your teammates and stop kicking the crap out of yourself. Stop watching the watch. Just train and race. If you are truly a sub 25 8Ker (I must say I am skeptical) and a 1:53 800 runner, you are a coach's dream (and not a 4:10 guy; try 4:05 or better). The 4 lapper will take care of itself.

They hand out plenty of NCAA medals in March....

But I agree with you. Sub-25 8k on a legit course (Paul Short is DEFINITELY a legit course, and not particularly flat either) + 1:53 in the 800 sounds like the profile of a sub-4:10 guy. It's baffling to me that someone with that much endurance and speed can't even run under 4:20. Are you going out in like 2:02 for the first 800 then dying? Or just even splitting a 4:25?

My other comment is that your training looks too intense and anaerobic for a guy with your endurance. Like that 5x300 with 8:00 rest workout. That's like a speed endurance workout for a 400 guy. Not very appropriate for a 1500 runner with sub-25 8k xc endurance.

I remember a story about the coach at San Jose State back in the day when it was known as Speed City (Smith & Carlos)

He had his sprinters run 3 repeat 100's. The first at 75% effort, the next at 90% effort and the last at 100% effort. All the runners ran the fastest on the 2nd repeat, the 90% effort.

He told them that was a lesson in learning how to run relaxed.

My guess is that you're running too tight. Maybe all you did to do is repeat the mantra..."stride out and relax, run loose."

Come to the UW and I'll put you in the fast heat at every home meet in the Dempsey!

are you saying you actually ran a full mile in 4:10 in practice.

FrustratedRunner232 wrote:

I do think its a mental thing as i get deathly nervous before races now and am afraid I am going to have another bad race.

as for workouts

ive done things like 8x400 @ 61 w/ 2 mins

600-400-600-400-300-300 @ 58 pace with 1 min per 100 recovery (I know a lot of recovery)

3x1200 @ 3:30 + 4x800 @ 2:15 w/ 2 min

5x300 @ 37-37-38-39-40 8 mins

3x800 w/ 4 mins rest 2:05, 2:04, 2:02, followed by 4x150 striders

5x1000 @ 2:55 w/ 2 min + 4x400 @ 62-63 w/ 2 min + 2x150 basically all out (16.8, 17.2)

A lot of people might think this is not indicative of anything, but looking at my log and the workouts i did before 4:11 & 1:53 these workouts are a bit faster then why i was in those shapes, which is why i think im in better shape. but i could be wrong

If these are actual workout times and not totally made up then something doesn't compute. I don't know how you could do these and not be a sub 4:08 guy, just the 800 workout alone is probably worth 4:05ish for a full mile.

I also get nervous before races, part of the reason why I still race, and provides the adrenaline that I need to get out in 62 and have it feel like I'm walking. Get your mindset right or stop trolling the board with made up workouts.

Get your iron checked?

Be a 4:25 guy in practice and 4:10 for races.

"""3x800 w/ 4 mins rest 2:05, 2:04, 2:02, followed by 4x150 striders"""

"I don't know how you could do these and not be a sub 4:08 guy, just the 800 workout alone is probably worth 4:05ish for a full mile. "

Well, certainly that workout signifies something a lot better than 4:25. Probably not 4:05, though.

I was a 4:16 guy and did 4x800 with 4 mins rest in (2:05, 2:06, 2:08, 2:12). I was not nearly as fast at 400/800 as the OP. Nor could I break 25 at 8k in HS.

Something just does not compute for me, though as a 4:16 I ran times in the range from 4:16 to 4:25 my senior year, but that 4:25 was a race I lead wire to wire with a strong head wind in the backstretch. Usually, you should be within 5-10 seconds of your PR for a mile (unless you are Leo Manzano or it's a really tactical race).

sometimes you have to race your way to your potential.

Your fastest mile in May might feel like gliding on air compare to a race in March where you ran much slower. I've been there.

8:00/mile is SUPER slow and was too easy. I would suggest running faster and harder most days, progressing to 6:00/mile or faster for a few miles depending on how you're feeling that day. You may be lacking the specific endurance required to sustain a pace and kick. Also add more strides at or slightly faster than race pace, 10x100m pretty much everyday just smooth with good recovery.

Ya, I'm calling bull$#!^. Check a look at those two last 150's after the 1000's and 400's; if you can do that at the end of a workout, as well as the 800 and 1200 workouts, you should be closer to 4:00 than 4:10. You should be able to jog 4:20, even if you do your easy runs way too easy.

FrustratedRunner232 wrote:

I do think its a mental thing as i get deathly nervous before races now and am afraid I am going to have another bad race.

as for workouts

ive done things like 8x400 @ 61 w/ 2 mins

600-400-600-400-300-300 @ 58 pace with 1 min per 100 recovery (I know a lot of recovery)

3x1200 @ 3:30 + 4x800 @ 2:15 w/ 2 min

5x300 @ 37-37-38-39-40 8 mins

3x800 w/ 4 mins rest 2:05, 2:04, 2:02, followed by 4x150 striders

5x1000 @ 2:55 w/ 2 min + 4x400 @ 62-63 w/ 2 min + 2x150 basically all out (16.8, 17.2)

A lot of people might think this is not indicative of anything, but looking at my log and the workouts i did before 4:11 & 1:53 these workouts are a bit faster then why i was in those shapes, which is why i think im in better shape. but i could be wrong

It's DEFINITELY a mental thing, from what you said above. Go see a sports psychologist.

Leo, talk to your coach.