The unofficial masters recovery thread

agip wrote:

...and no marathons. Those things are killers.

This. It's probably okay to run 5 1/2 hour marathons, but training for a fast marathon with advanced age leads to chronically high cortisol levels, which in my opinion increases the risk of many major illnesses of seniors.

fisky- I think that you will find this video very interesting if you haven't already seen it:

https://vimeo.com/98353863

Seiler analyzes the training of elite endurance athletes, and shows how the most successful athletes "polarize" their training into a high-volume/low-intensity training OR high-intensity/low volume training, avoiding the "Black Hole" of medium intensity/medium volume training found at the zone 2 and 3 levels. This has led to the concept of "80/20" training.

It is apparent that most endurance training should be done at a slower pace to build the machinery of aerobic metabolism and structural musculoskeletal components, with just enough additional high-intensity training to safely build strength and power and "sharpen the blade" for competition.

I watched the presentation. Thanks for posting. For those who haven't watched, the gist is that athletes that trained 80% of the time well below LT and about 20% of the time above LT and very little at LT did better than athletes who did less low intensity hours.

I guess my question is how slow can you go and still get this performance boost? The HR for Zone 1 in the presentation was shown as 55%-75% of MHR. That is far too large a range to be helpful as a training measurement, in my opinion. For me, that's a range of 101-139 BPM! At 139, I'm around 10min/mile. At 101, I'm walking purposely. At 111, I'm at 15 min/mile... that's still no more than a brisk walk.

To be helpful, I need to know what is "slow" within a much narrower range. Should I be doing my slow runs at 115-120 BPM or more like 130-135? For me, the difference is about 90 seconds/mile in pace!

fisky wrote:

agip wrote:

...and no marathons. Those things are killers.

This. It's probably okay to run 5 1/2 hour marathons, but training for a fast marathon with advanced age leads to chronically high cortisol levels, which in my opinion increases the risk of many major illnesses of seniors.

Watchu talkin bout Willis, if its 5 1/2 hrs you aintzz runnin.

OK, where do I begin. I started running competively in 1965 and have one so on a regular basis since. I could run every day until my late fifties. At 66 four days of running works well with two quality days (tempo/intervals/repetitions). The other days I walk or rest. I believe in quality over sheer volume.

Igy

The key is keeping the easy stuff so you are in recovery mode . I am convinced that HR is way overrated as far as fitness goes. Neural Muscular activation at a low HR works well. I just hike up and down hills for easy days.The downhills really are key. The downhills build Eccentric Strength which keeps your landing strength strong without impact damage and at a lower HR.

Charlie wrote:

The key is keeping the easy stuff so you are in recovery mode . I am convinced that HR is way overrated as far as fitness goes. Neural Muscular activation at a low HR works well. I just hike up and down hills for easy days.The downhills really are key. The downhills build Eccentric Strength which keeps your landing strength strong without impact damage and at a lower HR.

Interesting. I think HR is a good indicator to keep from running to hard on easy days. Yesterday, I ran trails easy after a high volume leg workout at the fitness center. I didn't plan it that way, but it was the group workout. Anyway, my HR immediately shot up to 135 and then over 140 on the hills. I had to walk several times to keep my HR down, yet I never felt very tired. Had it not been for the HRM, I would have pushed more, perhaps too hard, for an easy recovery day.

you still went too hard probably should have hiked the whole thing;)

Most training programs consider 60 percent of MHR (Karvonen) as easy . I consider 60 percent way too high a HR for recovery / daily efforts.

(60) got back running after 30+ yrs off. After 18 months am now doing 5mi easy (10ish) monday, 10-30-10 Tempo (745) or hills (6-7mi) tues, 3 mi. easy Weds, 12x200s (37-38s) w/2mi wu Thurs, off Fri, 12x400s (90-95s, 2m rest) Sat, long run easy 8-10mi Sunday. Use the theragun a lot, hot tub, and long active warm up. No injuries ... yet, not really sure what i'm training for but will see how i feel in the spring

43, run on the road 90% of the time, 50-55 miles a week, do a workout every 3rd or 4th day alternating between intervals, tempo and long run. Recovery is tied to the paces you’re hitting in the workouts. If you’re old, and still haven’t figured that out, consider a late career in cycling.

Over 60 and have run all my life. Running 50 miles per week, slow and easy. Only do a hard session once per week or fortnight. Now find downhill running difficult. IMO, consistency (frequency and mileage) is more important than quality.

I can't believe these haven't been mentioned:

1) Spend less time sitting. Use a stand-up desk at work if possible for better blood flow and posture.

2) EVERY RUNNER SHOULD SLEEP WITH A KNEE PILLOW!!!! This reduces irritation of the sciatic nerve by the piriformis muscle, which lead to sciatica pain, lower back pain and a long chain of bad outcomes. Follow link for the best $25 you will ever spend (Everlasting Comfort 100% Pure Memory Foam Knee Pillow):

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07995B8L1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

3) Soak your feet, ankles and lower calf in a 5 gallon bucket of hot water (filled half-way) several times per week. Make the water as hot as you can stand it by starting too hot and slowly adding room temp water until you can stand it. This improves blood flow/circulation and helps with plantar fasciitis, Haglund's syndrome, Achilles tendinitis, lower calf stiffness, etc.

4) I am also a fan of Hoka One One Ora Recovery Sandals after long runs.

Lots of interesting and very individual stuff so far. I'm 70 and have been mostly running since 1965 with a couple of years in my 20s of only swim training with my wife, and a couple of years in my 30s of triathlon before getting back to mainly running. Over the years I generally have averaged 1500-2500 miles/yr. Last year I was at 2300 miles ( which now includes walking miles). I have only done one (ugly) marathon at age 35. I usually do about a half dozen 5k-10k road races and about a half dozen XC and/or trail races of 5k-21k each year. I now usually do 3 workouts per week, a threshold effort, a 3-5 miles of intervals, and a 10-14 mile long run. 3 days a week I do a recovery 7 mile walk that takes about 100-105 minutes. Some time in my early 60s I decided that even my easiest running pace still was too high a heart rate and too much effort to be good recovery, so I switched to walking. One day a week is "how I feel" and varies anywhere from a moderate 10 miles to a complete day off depending on how I feel. I also do about 30 minutes of cross-training before starting my runs most days.

I'm 5'8" and my weight has only varied between about 125lbs-135lbs over my adult life. Currently, I'm 127. I grew up in the golden age of fast food and have never met a burger, fries and milk shake I didn't like. Over the years I have tried to steadily improve my diet and now eat mostly fresh foods, but I have plenty of dairy (milk, yogurt and cheese) in my diet and cover the protein spectrum with beef, poultry, fish and eggs all appearing on my dinner choices. I also eat my fair share of bread and baked products. I usually have two cups of coffee before I run in the mornings and two more with breakfast afterwards. I like my regular glass of wine or a beer with dinner.

My guiding principles in training are go hard on the hard days and easy on the easy days, and if something doesn't feel right, then back off until it starts feeling right again.

61 here. I run in the neighborhood of 50 miles per week for a good portion of my bi-annual training seasons. I generally have two faster days per week where I’m targeting tempo pace [5k pace + 25 sec per mile] or faster. I limit my fast stuff to six to eight miles per week maximum. This includes rest intervals. But not my normal 2 mile warmup and 2 mile cool down. All the other training sessions I keep my average heart rate around 70% of max. Maybe 75% when it gets really hot outside. I find that this keeps me fresh and fast from week to week.

53. I've found that taking 2 complete days off between running keeps the injuries away. I also don't run with anyone else. When I did, I found that workouts turned into races or they went longer than planned. It was a good recipe for achilles, IT or patellar tendinitis.

I second the Hoka recommendation. Game changer for my feet.

Oh, I also stretch and do drills for at least an hour before the workout.

62, run 6 days a week, maybe more sometimes, Lift and cross-train 4 or 5 days a week.

Do an interval session once per week with my club, and otherwise run by feel, with easing in to at least a couple of tempo efforts each week. Try to charm a long run once per week, but sometimes my heart just isn't in it.

Average 30 to 35 miles per week. All my runs are done purposely on a continually hilly loop course.

I have to agree with Agip, the marathon was not conducive to my overall running health and vigor, and have felt much better since giving them up.

Also, I live and die by doing leg weight lifting sessions at the gym at least twice per week, and do core and stretching and range of motion stuff on the other days.

Use the cushioned shoes exclusively.

I'm running faster than i was several years ago and virtually never feel beat up anymore.

Sneaking up on 55, I’ve run all my life although not seriously until my 30s and my best performances happened in my early 40s, after which I suffered a sudden, sharp decline followed by a long, slow, gradual decline. Ran 15:54 at 43, would struggle to nip below 20 today if I could manage to string together good trading, which I can’t seem to do. I have not raced in about ten years, but still wake up every day hoping to run, and usually manage 4 or 5 runs a week, many of them very slow and easy with my wife. Once or twice a week I try to do some faster running, which is usually disheartening if I look at the watch... :-)

I’ve had reasonable success in the past working through muscle issues with ART or other aggressive massage. I seem to be afflicted with a random assortment of aches and pains, in spite of low volume and mainly low intensity. Lately my damn feet are acting up. Other times it’s the quads, hamstrings, calves, etc...

I’m not sure the aging human body is meant to train for serious distance running, and those who manage it successfully may be genetic outliers.

Charlie wrote:

you still went too hard probably should have hiked the whole thing;)

Most training programs consider 60 percent of MHR (Karvonen) as easy . I consider 60 percent way too high a HR for recovery / daily efforts.

A previous poster linked the Polarised model, by Stephen Seiler. He has since clarified that he thinks 70% of max hr as the bullseye target for easy running. 70% has also been quoted by some other gurus, and I find this is very easy for everyday running.

The 60% is way below the majority of recommendations, and most people simply cannot run at this low hr. However, totally agree, that the lower Hr you can run at the better and more sustainable it will be.

Ummm...staying off your feet tends to speed up recovery in most.