deleuze wrote:
Why commit to one or the other? Some days do 8-6, other days 4-4, other days, 6-4. You get the picture. Listen to your body and work around your life schedule. Those factors are way more important to your training than abstract physiology.
That's pretty much what I do a lot. This am I was feeling good so went 4 easy and 6 hard. I figd its Veterans Day and I may get into the beer early so may not be a double kinda day
runrincerepeat wrote:
For me two ten milers with a little break and recovery lessens my chance to get injured.
Also I feel like I can run slightly faster w splitting the long run and also stressing the body twice in one day. malmo believes in doubles and the old school guys ran a lot of fast races doing high mileage and a lot of doubles. So I started doing it and I feel good, so gonna keep to it. When I run a few races we will see what happens!
Pretty much. The stress on the legs goes up significantly with fatigue. At some point if you are racing 90+ mins you need to get some long runs. But to try and get most of your mileage that way works for very few people. There are a lot more people that can do 100 mile weeks by doing 9/5 with bit more on the weekend than who can do 13+ miles per day with a longer weekend run.
Variety is the spice of life. 12 straight, 8-4, 6-6, 9-3, 5-7, etc. Different paces. Mix it up. Fartlek.
Pfitzinger and Daniels comment in their books that, for the longer races, you aren't training to run 10 miles twice in one day, nor are you getting as much benefit from long tempo runs broken into segments, although some variety in workouts helps prevent staleness and injury.
Race specific training; keep in mind that the ultimate goal is to feel strong in the later portions of the distance of your specific race.
A program of doubles that worked for a 2 mile race on a track may not be effective for many training for a half or full marathon.
Personally. My main goal is to race a lot of different races from half marathon to a road two mile. Going to try the old school approach of getting in big miles eventually next year. (Just finished my 78th mile this week) and racing a lot. I think one year Rodgers raced like every ten days from two miles to marathon
Doubletrrrrouble wrote:
Basically I am doing 12 miles on weekdays this fall winter and longer runs on weekend (sometimes 12 straight on wed morn). Is 8-4 better than 6-6 or does it matter
No, it doesn't matter. Split them up in whatever way best enables you to get it in every day.
Here are a couple of old threads that I keep bookmarked and refer to often on this subject.
100 mpw in singles or doubles
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3965743
What is the science behind doing doubles over singles
From a post I saw on one of the links
"Interesting
Alberto Salazar
10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 13.0 miles. Longest run is 15 miles.
Todd Williams
10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 10.2 miles. Longest run is 12 miles."
I am beginning to understand that the all in one long run isn't that important and is probably detrimental to races 20 miles and under
Runrincerepeat wrote:
From a post I saw on one of the links
"Interesting
Alberto Salazar
10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 13.0 miles. Longest run is 15 miles.
Todd Williams
10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 10.2 miles. Longest run is 12 miles."
I am beginning to understand that the all in one long run isn't that important and is probably detrimental to races 20 miles and under
Correct. Back in the day, people read that Shorter/Rodgers/etc. were doing 20 mile long runs, and so figured that the 20 mile runs were a key to success. What they failed to grasp was that these guys were running 140/week, so their long run was in line with their daily average, just as you see with Salazar and Williams.
I don't know that (overly) long runs are necessarily detrimental in and of themselves. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and they can be sufficiently demanding that the recovery required takes away from other training that is more important.
You should be doing them all. 12 miles. 8 and 4. 6 and 6. 7 and 5 even. Just do it and do it concistently.
Kinda what I have been doing. This week I have gone 8-4 a couple times. And 5-5. 10-7. Etc. with a 12 miler all in one and an 11 miler
Runrincerepeat wrote:
From a post I saw on one of the links
"Interesting
Alberto Salazar
10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 13.0 miles. Longest run is 15 miles.
Todd Williams
10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 10.2 miles. Longest run is 12 miles."
I am beginning to understand that the all in one long run isn't that important and is probably detrimental to races 20 miles and under
I had success with my last marathon doing shorter, but faster, long runs. Most of mine were 16 milers but had MP for the majority of pace. I was doing doubles 4 to 5 times a week to peak at 80mpw. My single longest run was 17 but that was because I miscalculated my turn around point and went an extra mile.
IMO, unless you are running 100+ mpw, 20 milers are a waste.
Smoove wrote:
Got it. Good luck.
While unsolicited, I figured I would share my perspective on doubling.
We draw glycogen from three sources in our body: the blood stream, our liver, the muscles engaged in activity (in that order, I believe). I don't have a study that I can point to, but it is my understanding that you deplete your glycogen stores from the first source (your blood stream, I believe) in about an hour of running.
When racing longer distances (half and up, maybe 15k and up for some), you end up undergoing that transition during the race. As a result, come race day, I want my body to be fully adapted to making that transition; so I try to get in as many runs as possible which result in the transition occurring. That is to say that I try to run for at least 70 minutes (about 10 miles for me) as often as possible, without exceeding my mileage goals for the week.
So if I were going to run 20 miles over a three day period, rather than go 8-4 one day and 8 another, I would go 10 one day and 10 another with the result being that I made the transition between energy sources on both runs and ultimately spent 20 minutes over those two runs drawing on my secondary source of energy rather than no transition at all in the doubling scenario.
Admittedly, this is much more important when you are running the marathon where you have to be as efficient with your use of calories as possible and so you want that transition to be smooth and you want your body to be accustomed to and efficient at drawing on the secondary source of glycogen.
I'm not sure I have the science exactly right, and I know that there are other reasons to double, but I figured I would just give folks who might be reading this string some food for thought.
I agree 100% with this. I've read variations of the glycogen transition occurrence being between 75-90 minutes.
So I ran as many 90'ish minute runs as I could in the build up, I even told my coach that I didn't like doubles for this reason and he tweaked my training. I feel as if it paid off, as I was able to PR in my marathon using just 2 gels and not hitting any walls.
GulanRapp wrote:
4-8, do the 4 in the morning as a shakeout
The reason this is a bad question is that it makes no sense to shoot for 12 miles a day, then pick the workouts to match. First select the workouts you want to get in - is each day supposed to be easy, medium, hard? what kind of stimulus do you want that day? Then adjust the distances. If it's a recovery day, do 4-6 or 5-5. If a light day, do 4 recovery and 8-10 moderate. If more of a medium day, do 12 straight through. If a workout day, do the workout in one session and a recovery 4 in the other.
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