The mens 400m world record is a joke

malmo wrote:

Nowhere do I say that lane 8 is preferable over any other lane.

From a physics perspective, lane 8 is the fastest lane since you are running a more gradual bend for half of the race. The only reason anyone would choose another lane is psychological or tactical, but you don't really get tactical 400m races since you should really just try to run as fast a time as you can.

Some athletes can't run their fastest without a "moving target" to try to catch up with, but others who may not be so dependent upon such extrinsic motivations can run faster in the outside lane.

kartelite wrote:

malmo wrote:

Nowhere do I say that lane 8 is preferable over any other lane.

From a physics perspective, lane 8 is the fastest lane since you are running a more gradual bend for half of the race. .

So says the conventional wisdom. But whether the difference is more than negligible is a task that is beyond my purview -- yours too.

kartelite wrote:

From a physics perspective, lane 8 is the fastest lane since you are running a more gradual bend for half of the race. The only reason anyone would choose another lane is psychological or tactical, but you don't really get tactical 400m races since you should really just try to run as fast a time as you can.

Some athletes can't run their fastest without a "moving target" to try to catch up with, but others who may not be so dependent upon such extrinsic motivations can run faster in the outside lane.

Apparently fear is sufficient extrinsic motivation.

Something I haven't seen brought up much is that he spent several months prior to the Olympics in Jamaica training with Bolt's coach. I believe Bolt's group to be dirty, so it's a red flag for me.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/how-usain-bolt-predicted-wayde-van-niekerk-would-break-michael-johnsons-400-record-055818860.html

Van Niekerk spent time in Jamaica earlier this year training with Bolt and his coach Glen Mills. While there, Bolt made a prediction that on Sunday proved to be prescient.

“When he came to Jamaica, I said to him, ‘You’re the only person who can break the 400-meter record,’ ” Bolt said. “He’s very fast and keeps on going. To me, I wasn’t really surprised he got it.”

malmo wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

Red herring. Zlatan is pointing out that athletes prefer 4-6 because it confers an advantage, not merely that they perform better there.

If lane 8 really make a record more likely, then athletes capable of records would want to choose it. They don't.

Not a red herring at all. The reason why athletes "prefer" lanes 4-6 is because that's the way it always has been. It also makes sense that they would want to be close to their best competition I can guarantee you is the seeding convention put the fastesrt runner in lane 8 and all the other runners get to chose their lane, the other runners would want 7, 6, 5, 4 in that order.

Nowhere do I say that lane 8 is preferable over any other lane.

Correct. People who are having trouble with what you wrote need to work on comprehension.

sbeefyk1 wrote:

I remember seeing his face after he saw the time. It was as if he was thinking "oops, I ran too fast and now I will get caught." That says it all.

I was thinking the same thing. I get being shocked at the moment, but he really didn't look happy about it at all. No matter how tired you are, you can still muster up enough energy to celebrate breaking a WR.

Brainy smurf wrote:

sbeefyk1 wrote:

I remember seeing his face after he saw the time. It was as if he was thinking "oops, I ran too fast and now I will get caught." That says it all.

I was thinking the same thing. I get being shocked at the moment, but he really didn't look happy about it at all. No matter how tired you are, you can still muster up enough energy to celebrate breaking a WR.

Can you show your post WR videos?

maybe if you are used to PED induced WRs where people arnt even phased or tired at all

i PR's by .7 in the 400 and my coach was super excited and pumped, but all i could think of doing was sitting down somewhere as soon as possible as the pain was building at an exponential rate. i cant say for everyone but for me the last 50m or so was painful, but it was the 20 min or so after i was done running that HURT the most, severe pain in the ass, hamstrings, calves, quads, forearms and brutal mind splitting headache, and if i didnt lay down right away there was dry heaving and puking. my guess is the people who dont fall down like that didnt push 100%, but you look at how he layed down last year and his facial expressions this year as he was hunched over you can tell its not pleasant

in my mind the 400 if ran 100% is the most terrifying because of the pain involved after the fact, look at how many people just lay around on the ground in pain after a good 400 race.

Zlatan wrote:

It doesn't happen because the best athletes run in lanes 4-6 99% of the time. How many times in his whole career did MJ run in lane 8?

Michael Johnson won the 1992 200m Olympic Trials out of lane 8 - and it wasn't far from the world record at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-lv5MZtN-g

I think that was OJ Simpson commentating at the end.

The indoor 200m record was run in the far outside lane 6.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIwd6rXKg68

malmo wrote:So says the conventional wisdom. But whether the difference is more than negligible is a task that is beyond my purview -- yours too.

Seems the difference would have to be something more than negligible since basic vector physics says your forward momentum wants to remain forward and not expend energy changing direction. It seems logical that the tighter curve must require slightly more energy expenditure/sacrifice efficiency of forward movement than the gradual curve.

One curve for the 400?

wreckless eric wrote:

another 400m olympic final, world record from the outside lane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYNUxdoIacA

tttttttt wrote:

One curve for the 400?

wreckless eric wrote:

another 400m olympic final, world record from the outside lane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYNUxdoIacA

I love the guy in the middle that falls and flops on his back 5 meters short of the finish.

Looked like he stepped in a pothole or something.

MarathonMind wrote:

malmo wrote:So says the conventional wisdom. But whether the difference is more than negligible is a task that is beyond my purview -- yours too.

Seems the difference would have to be something more than negligible since basic vector physics says your forward momentum wants to remain forward and not expend energy changing direction. It seems logical that the tighter curve must require slightly more energy expenditure/sacrifice efficiency of forward movement than the gradual curve.

It seems that basic vector physics would be easily demonstrated then?

Lets see your proof? Pen and paper....

MarathonMind wrote:

malmo wrote:So says the conventional wisdom. But whether the difference is more than negligible is a task that is beyond my purview -- yours too.

Seems the difference would have to be something more than negligible since basic vector physics says your forward momentum wants to remain forward and not expend energy changing direction. It seems logical that the tighter curve must require slightly more energy expenditure/sacrifice efficiency of forward movement than the gradual curve.

No, there's no 'basic vector physics' at play here as anything more than a second order correction. This is largely about psychology and preference.

The reason records have been broken this Olympics is partly because a good crop of athletes have turned up and partly, and I'm really pissed about this, is down to the fact that the track is made from a different material to normal tracks.

Harder material = quicker times

as was pointed out above, lane 8 has the greatest radius on turns, least curvature, which should be a little easier to run at high speed. Everyone runs the same distance of turns, as they all do the same equal 2 straights. so lane 8 runs a shorter and more gradual first turn while accelerating, is first to hit the back straight at the time when athletes are running the fastest (first 200m) and then has a longer second turn, but again, it's gradual.

Bad Wigins wrote:

malmo wrote:

This is correct. If the seeding convention put the fastest teams in lanes 1, 2 and 8, you'd find that the fastest lanes would be 1, 2 and 8.

Red herring. Zlatan is pointing out that athletes prefer 4-6 because it confers an advantage, not merely that they perform better there.

If lane 8 really make a record more likely, then athletes capable of records would want to choose it. They don't.

Athletes don't often pick lanes, so their preferences can't be deduced based on which lanes they use. I know plenty of sprinters who prefer outer lanes, but purposefully getting second or third in your semi opens you up to the possibility of lanes 1-3, which are terrible. The safest bet is to win your heat and end up in the middle of the track.

The 200 offers no benefit to inside lanes, as no one is cruising the turn measuring the competition (unless a sub-20 guy is in some joke race or prelim), and outside lanes offer more benefit than in the 400, as they are running faster.

It should also be noted that WvN broke the WR in the first 200 (second 200m was slower than MJ's), so it was actually THANKS to lane 8's combination of friendlier physics and instilled fear.

It's Grandmas cobbler...that's the secret!

kartelite wrote:

malmo wrote:

Nowhere do I say that lane 8 is preferable over any other lane.

From a physics perspective, lane 8 is the fastest lane since you are running a more gradual bend for half of the race. The only reason anyone would choose another lane is psychological or tactical, but you don't really get tactical 400m races since you should really just try to run as fast a time as you can.

Some athletes can't run their fastest without a "moving target" to try to catch up with, but others who may not be so dependent upon such extrinsic motivations can run faster in the outside lane.

100% the right answer. Well put.

kimani wrote:

Apart from the "blind" factor, the greater the speed, the smaller the turning radius. Bolt in lane eight a few years ago would've been a sight to behold.

A sprinter in the outermost lane gets no help from drafting.

My "ideal" lane would be 6 or 7.