D1 and D3, what's D2?

Bruh wrote:

I graduated HS about 13 months ago and I saw where everyone went, this is the best way to describe it.

Nope... you graduated FROM HS. FROM. Say it with me -- FROM.

hunterco88 wrote:

I don't know about D3 track being better than D2, but D2 sports are better in general. Most D2 football teams would eat D3 football teams alive.

I believe that D3 schools are not allowed scholarships. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

The NCAA allows a select few D-III schools to award athletic scholarships in certain sports. Examples: Johns Hopkins (lacrosse), Clarkson, RPI, St. Lawrence (ice hockey) Hartwick (water polo). Those D-I programs have been grandfathered, while the other sports at those schools remain in D-III and unable to issue scholarships.

D1 is mainly the best high school athletes going to the biggest schools. D3 is for people who are good enough to compete at a slightly lower level BUT CARE about their future.

People who could go D2 often go D3 simply because they want a job offer when they graduate. The good D3 schools are the really good academic institutions in the country, that a layman might not have heard of but are very highly respected.

D2 has better up front talent.

D3 has better depth. A lot of top DIII guys would make DII Nationals on the track and probably make AA but probably couldn't compete for the win except in a few rare cases.

Info on what it takes to be identified as NCAA Div I, II, III

http://www.ncaa.org/governance/membership

Not as many Div II (307) schools as Div I (346) or III (439) schools, means more talk about Div III and obviously Div I.

Division II is gaining NAIA schools every year. This means lots of smaller private schools, several with religious affiliation. On average, not top recognized academic schools. You can get a great education at many schools in every division, it is up to the individual to make use of their time and make the most of their time in college. Some connections will get you far in some industries but others will rely on the individual and the abilities that person has. Many great Div I, II, III people that can stand on their own feet without the need for a big name school on their diploma.

NCAA I has the best talent and the best depth.

NCAA II had the next top talent and has the best depth after Div I.

NCAA III has very good depth but lacks the top talent. Very few would make Div II track nationals (Maybe 2 - 4 an event, tops), meaning only a very small amount would have a chance at All-American and only a few more would get All-American in Div II Cross Country.

2016 TFRRS Top Times for Men:

5000 (Sub 14:15)

Div II - 25 (13 guys before Div III's top guy)

Div III - 5

10000 (Sub 30:00)

Div II - 25 (7 guys before Div III's 2nd guy)

Div III - 7

3000 Steeple (Sub 9:00)

Div II - 12

Div III - 2

1500 (Sub 3:45) - gets a bit closer

Div II - 10 (6 before Div III's 3rd)

Div III - 4

Div II should be better, mainly due to athletic scholarships and is. Anyone trying to make Div III seem anywhere close is kidding themselves. Sure there are a few really good guys from time to time in Div III but they are the exception and for good reason.

Div II athletically offers the chance for good long-term development with more positive experiences than Div I with regards to competing at the national meet. For some, never making nationals would crush their motivation. Div II gives those good talents the chance of making nationals much more realistically than at Div I. Positive experiences like this can help build confidence quicker and allow for more top level competition than the grind that many experience at the Div I level. Not saying it is the best for everyone but it certainly has been for many.

Div III can make the same argument and even moreso because it is easier to make the national meets in track/cc. Once at the national meet you don't see the type of competition you would at Div II nationals.

There are a lot of schools that are D1 in hockey only. Pen15 of them to be exact.

Sorry to bring out objective evidence to support what Flagpole and others have said, but here are the US News rankings for the top 20 national universities and liberal arts schools, along with their divisions which I added:

1 Princeton University 1

2 Harvard University 1

3 Yale University 1

4 Columbia University 1

4 Stanford University 1

4 University of Chicago 3

7 MIT 3

8 Duke University 1

9 University of Pennsylvania 1

10 Cal Tech 3

10 Johns Hopkins 3 (except for lacrosse)

12 Dartmouth College 1

12 Northwestern University 1

14 Brown University 1

15 Cornell University 1

15 Vanderbilt University 1

15 Washington University 3

18 Rice University 1

18 University of Notre Dame 1

20 UC Berkeley 1

Okay, I decided not to even do the liberal arts schools, which I believe are all D3 except for the Naval Academy. So among the two academic rankings, there are 24 D3 schools, 16 D1 schools, and 0 D2 schools.

Flagpole wrote:

Yes they are, but go research the best colleges in the country, and the overwhelming numbers of them are in D1 and D3. I have done a LOT of research on this. I don't have an answer for why it is, only that it is.

All flagship state universities are D1, as are all ivies. If you look at the rankings of R&D expenditures by university, they're dominated by these two categories of schools:

(sure, a small number of d3 schools like MIT and a handful of powerhouse private schools like Duke and Stanford make it, but it's not a big percentage )

At the other end, the prestigious liberal arts colleges that focus almost exclusively on undergraduate education are all D3.

That doesn't leave a lot of room for D2 schools at the higher end of academic reputation.

This is false.

All you have to do is compare the top 40 times in any distance event on tfrrs.org to see that Division 2 is much deeper than Division 3. In Division 2, it took sub 29:45 just to make nationals in the 10,000m.

Very true. Objective support is fine. Really though, people should just believe what I say. :)

Midwest XC wrote:

This is false.

All you have to do is compare the top 40 times in any distance event on tfrrs.org to see that Division 2 is much deeper than Division 3. In Division 2, it took sub 29:45 just to make nationals in the 10,000m.

If it weren't for the top few programs like Adams State, Chico, and Grand Valley State (I literally can't think of any other D2 school that is well known) then the top D2 would become so much less deep in their events. Yes, still having the top guys be faster than the average D3 runner, but they would be painfully average as a division. Just like D3! Those three schools account for like half of the national qualifiers in all the events 800m and up every year. They are the ones that make D2 look fast.

I feel like you can't even count Adams State, Chico, and Grand Valley State as D2 schools anymore because they are just so much better than everyone else.

D2 is actually D Too. Too as in also.

D Too = D also ran.

Here are the objective performances 2016 as stated, Athletic.net

D1 Men 400m 1) 44.82 w/ 273 sub-48 men

D2 Men 400m 1) 45.44 w/ 49 sub-48 men

D3 Men 400m 1) 46.92 w/ 16 sub-48 men

D1 Women 400m 1) 49.71 w/ 47 sub-53 women

D2 Women 400m 1) 51.17 w/ 3 sub-53 women

D3 Women 400m 1) 53.55 no sub-53 women

D1onstreetD3insheets wrote:

...

I feel like you can't even count Adams State, Chico, and Grand Valley State as D2 schools anymore because they are just so much better than everyone else.

That's not how it works. Did we not count Arkansas all those years in Indoor Track? How about Colorado historically in XC? Maybe we shouldn't count Alabama in Football while we are at it, no?

I went to SVSU and never complained about GVSU being better. I may not have liked it, but one has to respect the competition that is allowed within the rules - in this case, GVSU and the like maintaining D2 status.

Young Buck wrote:

That's not how it works. Did we not count Arkansas all those years in Indoor Track? How about Colorado historically in XC? Maybe we shouldn't count Alabama in Football while we are at it, no?

You're illustrating the point. Arkansas and Colorado are/were powerhouses, but they weren't OUTLIERS, like the top D2 schools are. There's a much, much bigger drop off in D2 from the best to the rest.

Young Buck wrote:

D1onstreetD3insheets wrote:

...

I feel like you can't even count Adams State, Chico, and Grand Valley State as D2 schools anymore because they are just so much better than everyone else.

That's not how it works. Did we not count Arkansas all those years in Indoor Track? How about Colorado historically in XC? Maybe we shouldn't count Alabama in Football while we are at it, no?

I went to SVSU and never complained about GVSU being better. I may not have liked it, but one has to respect the competition that is allowed within the rules - in this case, GVSU and the like maintaining D2 status.

Using TFRRS and stealing the method from the individual above posing about 400m times, you can see how the divisions stack up using my arbitrary method of time measurement.

Right away you can see how much better D1 is compared to that of D2 and D3. It also has substantial depth compared to the other two. When comparing D2 and D3 to each other, you don't see much variance other than depth in many of the middle distance and distance events. The only real difference between the D2 and D3 men in terms of top talent comes in the 5k, and even he was a big outlier. Otherwise, the only difference between the two divisions is the slight bump in depth. On the women's side, though, you see more disparity in the distance events But the trend remains the same.

To recap, D1 is a LOT better than D2 and D3. But D2 and D3 are essentially the same. The difference between the two typically comes in the form of education and athletic scholarships. D2 is able to offer its' athletes financial aid in the form of scholarships, and D3 does it in the form of academic scholarships. D3 also tends to hold much more prestige in academics, as best told through one of the posters above in his top schools in the nation. No D2 schools are a part of that listing. Not to say that there aren't any good D2 schools for academics, just that they are really not that common.

D1 Men 800m) 1:44.63 w/ 171 sub 1:52

D2 Men 800m) 1:47.32 w/ 42 sub 1:52

D3 Men 800m) 1:48.60 w/ 28 sub 1:52

D1 Women 800m) 2:02.29 w/ 161 sub 2:11

D2 Women 800m) 2:06.21 w/ 31 sub 2:11

D3 Women 800m) 2:05.54 w/ 20 sub 2:11

D1 Men 1500m) 3:38.05 w/ 180 sub 3:50

D2 Men 1500m) 3:41.80 w/ 43 sub 3:50

D3 Men 1500m) 3:42.01 w/ 20 sub 3:50

D1 Women 1500m) 4:11.52 w/ 170 sub 4:30

D2 Women 1500m) 4:21.25 w/ 26 sub 4:30

D3 Women 1500m) 4:23.25 w/ 8 sub 4:30

D1 Women 3k Steeple) 9:24.41 w/ 119 sub 11:00

D2 Women 3k Steeple) 9:50.54 w/ 41 sub 11:00

D3 Women 3k Steeple) 10:30 w/ 30 sub 11:00

D1 Men 3k Steeple) 8:28.77 w/ 77 sub 9:10

D2 Men 3k Steeple) 8:47.51 w/ 28 sub 9:10

D3 Men 3k Steeple) 8:56.23 w/ 19 sub 9:10

D1 Men 5k) 13:25.78 w/ 162 sub 14:30

D2 Men 5k) 13:36.83 w/ 37 sub 14:30

D3 Men 5k) 14:107 w/ 22 sub 14:30

D1 Women 5k) 15:44.28 w/ 159 sub 17:00

D2 Women 5k) 15:59.55 w/ 39 sub 17:00

D3 Women 5k) 16:20.19 w/ 16 sub 17:00

D1 Women 10k) 32:08.32 w/ 107 under 36:00

D2 Women 10k) 33:14.41 w/ 25 under 36:00

D3 Women 10k) 34:09.44 w/ 15 under 36:00

D1 Men 10k) 28:44.18 w/ 146 under 31:00

D2 Men 10k) 28:34.79 w/ 63 under 31:00

D3 Men 10k) 28:38.63 w/ 29 under 31:00

That is a really interesting way of looking at it. I have yet to graduate high school, but was looking at the next step in applying for colleges this upcoming fall.

I think I, and so many other talented runners, are so enthralled with the idea of getting a "scholarship" that we neglect the educational aspect of college. I think D2 is almost a trap in that sense. Maybe a trap is a poor use of words, more like limbo. You are a good athlete and want other people to know it, so you go D2. Or, you are a good athlete and don't have the grades to get in to a well known school for academics, so you go D2.

Also, perhaps that is why D2 is not as popular as D1 and D3. D2 is pretty on-par with D3, but not as populous as D3, so no one talks about it or gives it coverage.

That is what I gathered, at least.

CCAA RMAC etc wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

As a general statement, D2 schools aren't as good academically as most D1 and D3 schools. Also, there are a LOT of religious schools in the D2 bunch, so that's a pro or con depending on your view.

You can find decent academic D2 schools though. Off the top of my head if I had to pick three they would be Flagler College (beautiful setting), Gannon University, and Findlay University.

As a general statement, you are uninformed, wrong and exhibiting a regional myopia. In California UC San Diego and a number of the newer, smaller Cal State University campuses are academically very highly rated. Colorado School of Mines and numerous other D2 schools in the western US are more highly ranked academically than many D3 schools, which ofteb tend to be small and liberal arts oriented.

Bentley university

Colorado School of Mines

Hokey wrote:

There are a lot of schools that are D1 in hockey only. Pen15 of them to be exact.

Not all of those can offer athletic scholarships. Examples: Union, RIT. (non-grandfathered D-III schools)