D1 and D3, what's D2?

Uneducated wrote:

Everyone talks about D1 and D3 running, but I've never heard much if anything about D2 from this board. D1 is obviously the best, and everyone makes it out like D3 is next best. So does that mean that D3 is better than D2? Why don't they switch the numbers then, to make it more logical.

GLIAC.

I don't know about D3 track being better than D2, but D2 sports are better in general. Most D2 football teams would eat D3 football teams alive.

I believe that D3 schools are not allowed scholarships. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Okay thanks, so D2 is better. Interesting that it isn't talked about a ton compared to D3 then, maybe because of the undertrained distance D3 athletes becoming stars after college.

Do you ever hear people chant "We're No. 2, We're No. 2"?

D3 is just so large that you hear about them, although nobody pays attention.

D1 - Obviously the most competitive. The schools you see on TV all of the time. Most big state schools and prestigious private schools are D1. Are allowed 12.6 mens/18 womens scholarships.

D2 - The next step down from D1. Some very strong athletes. Way better at the front than D3 ever is and more depth as well. Lesser known schools for the most part. There are part of the country that have a ton of D2 schools and parts that have very few (southeast/northeast don't have nearly as many where the midwest has a lot of D2 schools). Not nearly as old of a division. Are allowed 12.6 scholarships for both men/women.

The top D2 team most years would finish 5-10 at NCAA DI. The top team would almost always win D3 Nationals.

D3 - Has some prestigious private schools and a long tradition. This is why you may have heard more about it. Talented very strong in depth but not nearly as fast up front as D1 or D2. Far less foreign talent because of no scholarships. No scholarships.

The top D3 team would finish top 4-6 at NCAA DII. Most likely wouldn't ever make D1 Nationals.

Other than the school's personal choice, what separates schools into each division anyway?

Could any d3 school arbitrarily choose to transition to being d1, or are there a list of requirements that would make this possible? What about the reverse?

From the link below, it appears that the only major requirements are scholarships available:

"Division I schools must meet minimum financial aid awards for their athletics program, and there are maximum athletic financial aid awards for each sport that a Division I school can't exceed."

For d2: "There are maximum financial aid awards for each sport."

and d3 can't offer any scholarships.

http://blog.prepscholar.com/what-are-ncaa-divisions-1-vs-2-vs-3

However, what about d1 schools that choose not to give scholarships like the ivy leagues? They don't meet whatever the mentioned 'minimum financial aid awards' are.

This all seems fairly arbitrary.

The top runners at D2 are usually much better than D3, although you get exceptions. The top D2 teams could actually compete fairly well at the D1 level. In XC, the top 3 D2 teams could probably make top 30, and sometimes a very good D2 team could probably be top 5 or 10 at the D1 championships. So that's a huge difference compared to D3. Moreover, D2 offers athletic scholarships, so they are like mini D1 schools. D3 does not give athletic scholarships, only based on academics and need (there have been arguments that this is not actually the case, but in general this premise holds). In track many D2 programs could compete fairly well against mid-major D1 schools, and maybe even win some conference meets. D3 schools do not have the depth and talent to do that.

But if you look at the depth charts after about the top 30-50 per event (if that), things even out and D2 and D3 are pretty equal. Academically D3 has many more strong schools than D2, but you can get a good education at either if you apply yourself.

Also differences in # of sports offered and # of scholarships offered

Alan

So if a school meets the minimum number of teams required, can it choose to be in whichever division it wants (assuming it doesn't offer more than the max scholarships for that division)?

As in, can any d1 school choose not to offer scholarships or is that restricted to ivies and the others have to meet the minimum referenced in the link? Can they do things like use all their available scholarships in some sports but not others?

If not, what allows some d1 schools to not offer scholarships while the others have to?

As a general statement, D2 schools aren't as good academically as most D1 and D3 schools. Also, there are a LOT of religious schools in the D2 bunch, so that's a pro or con depending on your view.

You can find decent academic D2 schools though. Off the top of my head if I had to pick three they would be Flagler College (beautiful setting), Gannon University, and Findlay University.

D4? Do their exist schools with running programs that don't even qualify to be called D3?

Flagpole wrote:

As a general statement, D2 schools aren't as good academically as most D1 and D3 schools. Also, there are a LOT of religious schools in the D2 bunch, so that's a pro or con depending on your view.

You can find decent academic D2 schools though. Off the top of my head if I had to pick three they would be Flagler College (beautiful setting), Gannon University, and Findlay University.

As a general statement, you are uninformed, wrong and exhibiting a regional myopia. In California UC San Diego and a number of the newer, smaller Cal State University campuses are academically very highly rated. Colorado School of Mines and numerous other D2 schools in the western US are more highly ranked academically than many D3 schools, which ofteb tend to be small and liberal arts oriented.

CCAA RMAC etc wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

As a general statement, D2 schools aren't as good academically as most D1 and D3 schools. Also, there are a LOT of religious schools in the D2 bunch, so that's a pro or con depending on your view.

You can find decent academic D2 schools though. Off the top of my head if I had to pick three they would be Flagler College (beautiful setting), Gannon University, and Findlay University.

As a general statement, you are uninformed, wrong and exhibiting a regional myopia. In California UC San Diego and a number of the newer, smaller Cal State University campuses are academically very highly rated. Colorado School of Mines and numerous other D2 schools in the western US are more highly ranked academically than many D3 schools, which ofteb tend to be small and liberal arts oriented.

I said, "as a general statement". This doesn't mean there aren't a few exceptions. You listed a few. Compared to D1 and D3, overall, D2 pales in comparison academically. A few shining stars, but the worst of the worst colleges are D2, and they drag the average WAY down. And regional myopia? Hardly.

My statement stands, and my assessment is correct.

Flagpole wrote:

As a general statement, D2 schools aren't as good academically as most D1 and D3 schools. Also, there are a LOT of religious schools in the D2 bunch, so that's a pro or con depending on your view.

You can find decent academic D2 schools though. Off the top of my head if I had to pick three they would be Flagler College (beautiful setting), Gannon University, and Findlay University.

NCAA D1, D2, D3, and NAIA are simply athletic divisions not academic divisions.

Alan

D2 is blue collar.

D3 is full of prissy private schoolboys.

This is why D3 is discussed (promoted by D3 prissyboys), and D2 isn't.

There was an a m a z i n g D3 running betches thread a few years that maybe somebody wants to resurrect.

D4 = NIRCA

Runningart2004 wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

As a general statement, D2 schools aren't as good academically as most D1 and D3 schools. Also, there are a LOT of religious schools in the D2 bunch, so that's a pro or con depending on your view.

You can find decent academic D2 schools though. Off the top of my head if I had to pick three they would be Flagler College (beautiful setting), Gannon University, and Findlay University.

NCAA D1, D2, D3, and NAIA are simply athletic divisions not academic divisions.

Alan

Yes they are, but go research the best colleges in the country, and the overwhelming numbers of them are in D1 and D3. I have done a LOT of research on this. I don't have an answer for why it is, only that it is.

chupacabra wrote:

There was an a m a z i n g D3 running betches thread a few years that maybe somebody wants to resurrect.

It's been deleted from letsrun but still exists here:

In my opinion, it's the most overrated of the often mentioned letsrun thread. Definitely not "a m a z i n g" at least.

CCAA RMAC etc wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

As a general statement, D2 schools aren't as good academically as most D1 and D3 schools. Also, there are a LOT of religious schools in the D2 bunch, so that's a pro or con depending on your view.

You can find decent academic D2 schools though. Off the top of my head if I had to pick three they would be Flagler College (beautiful setting), Gannon University, and Findlay University.

As a general statement, you are uninformed, wrong and exhibiting a regional myopia. In California UC San Diego and a number of the newer, smaller Cal State University campuses are academically very highly rated. Colorado School of Mines and numerous other D2 schools in the western US are more highly ranked academically than many D3 schools, which ofteb tend to be small and liberal arts oriented.

In Pennsylvania it's quite the opposite, Penn State and Pitt aren't official state schools and are essentially private. Both are very good schools. Lots of small D3 liberal arts schools like Haverford and Carnegie Mellon (both very good schools for running and academics, others are slightly worse, but still solid schools i.e. Dickinson, Ursinus, York). Some of the state schools such as West Chester, Shippensburg, Lock Haven and Millersville are good for running (esp. Shippensburg), but some of the academics are just not very good. Some of the schools have a few good academic programs, but everything else is just average and unless you are very smart, you aren't getting significant money in terms of merit or need based scholarships, and those schools aren't that cheap either. If you go to a liberal arts school, you can pick one that excels in your degree, you will get enough money (if you are decently smart) to make the school the same price as the state schools, you can run there and if you don't like it you can quit without losing a scholarship.

Essentially, the d2 schools attract kids that are too dumb for the private schools (that are good, some private schools are really bad), the few kids that choose a d2 scholarship over d1 and actual smart people who are very low income and weren't able to afford their school of choice. I graduated HS about 13 months ago and I saw where everyone went, this is the best way to describe it.