Bait and Switch: Schools not following through on verbal scholarship offers - How common is it? What's the solution?

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  • rojo
    cofounder
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 7:20am CDT
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    So Ken Goe has a nice article out where he talks to two ex-Oregon Ducks and asks them about why they transferred out. I found the one about a scholarship promise not being kept to be interesting.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2016/06/ex-oregon_track_athletes_nikki.html#incart_most_shared-trackandfield

    Nikki HIltz, who transferred to Arkansas after scoring in the mile at NCAA as a redshirt frosh, says she had her scholarship reduced for redshirt freshman year as she was hurt during her first year at Oregon. Ken Goe tells the rest.

    Goe wrote:

    "So then I asked them, 'In order to get that money back or to get more money, what can I do?'" Hiltz said. "Coach Johnson told me, '''All you have to do is make it to a NCAA final. You don't have to score for me, but you just have make the final outdoors.'

    "He said he wasn't expecting anything in cross country, nothing indoors. But he said, 'If you make it there outdoors, I promise to increase your scholarship.'"

    Hiltz exceeded the terms of what she perceived was their agreement.

    She made the NCAA indoor final and placed eighth, scoring a team point for the Ducks.

    She also made the NCAA outdoor final, although she didn't score.

    When it came time to meet with Johnson and UO women's distance coach Maurica Powell after the 2015 outdoor season, Hiltz found her scholarship offer again reduced.

    "I was like, 'I can't afford this,'" Hiltz said. "I need to find other options.'"

    This story reminded me of a friend of mine's experience in college. She asked the coach going into her junior year what she needed to do to get more money. She more than exceeded it by running 15:50. She went into his office before the summer to sign her deal and saw she was getting less, not more. She was llike "What's going on?" He said, "I did better than expected in recruiting. When I graduated form college, I had debt. It's an investment in your future." She was like, "I run 5:05 per mile for 5k, they do it for one."

    She was so upset by feeling deceived (even though she could afford it). she graduated and got a bigger offer for a 5th year at Colorado.

    Anyway, since I coached in the Ivies, I"ve always been fascinated by the money aspect of the sport. It's something bio one talks about but even in the Ivies it's what drives recruiting.

    But how common are the stories above?

    And are scholarships still only good for one year? That seems absurd. But I do get it to some extent. I mean academic scholarships do come with GPA requirements.

    Has there ever been a legal case where an athlete tried to sue? Lawyer, are verbal agreements binding at all? Does it vary by state?

    I would think the whole money aspect of it would kill the enjoyment of so many athletes and coaches. You bring a guy in on 20%, he runs great and is all-american. You know he deserves a full ride but he's quiet and doesn't ask for it so you give it to a frosh?

    Let's hear your scholarship stories - both good and bad.
  • girlslax
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 7:27am CDT
    re: rojo
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    The sport I would really like to hear about is girls lacrosse. I live in Md, and girls lax is huge, and girls make verbal commitments as young as 8th grade?

    http://www.laxmagazine.com/college_women/DI/2015-16/news/011316_eighth_graders_commitment_brings_iwlca_imlca_recruiting_proposals_to_light_florida_select_caitlyn_wurzburger
  • might be JK
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 7:33am CDT
    re: rojo
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    I walked on to a solid D1 program. End of sophomore year, I was well ahead of several guys there on athletic scholarships. Coach found money for me, unprovoked. I was just there to run and try to help the team. Didn't even occur to me that I deserved scholarship money. So there's a good story.
  • rojo
    cofounder
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 7:41am CDT
    re: girlslax
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    girlslax wrote:

    The sport I would really like to hear about is girls lacrosse. I live in Md, and girls lax is huge, and girls make verbal commitments as young as 8th grade?

    http://www.laxmagazine.com/college_women/DI/2015-16/news/011316_eighth_graders_commitment_brings_iwlca_imlca_recruiting_proposals_to_light_florida_select_caitlyn_wurzburger

    I live in md. Maybe we should go for a run.

    The idea of a verbal offer is absurd for a HSer.

    1) It means nothing.

    2) It's stupid.

    If i had a kid, I"d say, "We'll start to think about college in 10th grade."
  • Yes indeed
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 8:09am CDT
    re: rojo
    Forum Index
    These kinds of scholarship reductions/removals occur all the time. It depends on the school and its coaching staff, but again, it happens all the time. At my mid-pack D1 school in one of the big conferences, this happened to several people every year. People who had underperformed during the year always dreaded their year-end scholarship meeting with the head coach.
  • Big Ten
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 8:49am CDT
    re: Yes indeed
    Forum Index
    Yes indeed wrote:

    These kinds of scholarship reductions/removals occur all the time. .

    Which is why the Big Ten banned reductions. Scholarships in the Big Ten are for 4 years.
  • YungFartlek
    registered
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 8:49am CDT
    re: rojo
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    I'm in MD too, we should hit the bricks one day rojo! As for the whole scholarship thing...

    I had received a partial scholarship, ran a top 5 all time mark for my school in my event, which includes a ton of Kenyan and Australians from the 1980s, and was not considered for any sort of increase. Who cares. They then recruited two freshmen guys who got full rides, and three girls who got the same. None of which ever performed better than me in any race on a relative scale. I ended up even faster, and they (as my team liked to say) "got their money and were just happy to be there"
  • ..............................
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 9:03am CDT
    re: YungFartlek
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    I'm glad someone started a thread about this. Finally someone is pulling back the curtain on places that are admired for how fast they run, how many championships they win, without ever looking INSIDE.

    when you as a recruit/family fall for the "okie doke" of the big school with the football game and the 3 different uniforms, and the cool locker room, then you get what you deserve. The kid and family were blinded by glitz and glamour, and excited to run back home and tell everyone they were going to "big name U." The HS coach got his once in a lifetime brag. Then you get there and the reality hits.

    So you as a recruit/family BETTER ASK great questions on your visit. You better get things in writing.

    An ethical coach holds some money back for deserving kids ALREADY in their program. An ethical coach knows in the Fall or early indoor who is outperforming their scholarship and makes plans to take care of THEIR OWN TEAM, before spending it all on incoming kids.

    But to answer the original question YES it happens all the time that you people have scholarships reduced, or have promises made that are never kept. And kids are comfortable or happy otherwise and don't transfer, yet struggle. As in all things, BUYER BEWARE.
  • survived the system
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 9:10am CDT
    re: rojo
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    I don't know how often it happens. The solution is to name and shame. Kids being recruited deserve to know what coaches have been guilty of this in the past.
  • runner dad with advice
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 9:13am CDT
    re: rojo
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    You shouldn't get a decrease if you're improving and making it to Nats. That's nuts.

    But, the problem I see is the exact opposite. Kids that get significant schollys who don't perform, but they're essentially locked into their scholarships for 4 years.

    If I were a coach, I would definitely take away $ from people not putting forth the effort so I could give $ to kids that are busting their butts.

    If you don't, it creates a lot of bad incentives and chemistry on a team.

    I wouldn't take away $ if a kid's injured, but I've seen several kids use injury as an excuse. If you're on scholarship and you're injured, then you better be doing everything you can to get healthy. If you are, you keep your $. If not, you may get $ cut.

    My pitch during recruiting would be simple (given that most men, at least, don't get full rides). If you work hard, you'll not only maintain, but potentially increase your $. But I expect you to do the work.
  • trying to keep up
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 9:21am CDT
    re: runner dad with advice
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    It's actually not allowed to reduce based on athletic performances.

    Can only reduce for academic, misconduct, etc.

    So, someone might want to check into that.
  • LookAtTheRules
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 9:31am CDT
    re: trying to keep up
    Forum Index
    trying to keep up wrote:

    It's actually not allowed to reduce based on athletic performances.

    Can only reduce for academic, misconduct, etc.

    So, someone might want to check into that.

    Sure it is, at the end of each school year. There's no NCAA prohibition on reducing aid, or dropping it entirely. You just can't do it for athletics reasons DURING the period of the award.

    Now, if the conference requires a 4-year award period, then there can be no reductions for athletics reasons during that time. But most are on the year-to-year schedule.
  • Robert Johnson no integrity
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 9:47am CDT
    re: rojo
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    This is something Johnson (Oregon head coach) is quite fond of doing this. It's happened to a number of athletes at Oregon since hes taken over. They're promised scholarship money in the future that they never receive even if they perform. They reduce or cut kids to 0 in June with no warning. They especially love to do this to transfers because they know they can't leave to another D1 without sitting out a year. It happened to a few girls that transferred in as sophs or juniors recently. Be wary of Oregon if you need that scholarship to get through school, RJ is ruthless.
  • ncaa man
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 10:08am CDT
    re: LookAtTheRules
    Forum Index
    LookAtTheRules wrote:

    trying to keep up wrote:

    It's actually not allowed to reduce based on athletic performances.

    Can only reduce for academic, misconduct, etc.

    So, someone might want to check into that.

    Sure it is, at the end of each school year. There's no NCAA prohibition on reducing aid, or dropping it entirely. You just can't do it for athletics reasons DURING the period of the award.

    Now, if the conference requires a 4-year award period, then there can be no reductions for athletics reasons during that time. But most are on the year-to-year schedule.


    New rules implemented in 2015. It's not permissible to reduce because of athletic performance reasons.

    That include after the year for renewals.
  • !!::!!
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 10:24am CDT
    re: rojo
    Forum Index
    With the costs of college skyrocketing, most kids need and and all help that they can get with the college costs so stuff like this is a real crappy deal. One thing to have a small debt from college, something else entirely to have a 6 figure debt from college
  • Precious Roy
    registered
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 10:33am CDT
    re: ncaa man
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    Contract law is state law and can vary from state to state. Anyone with a legal issue involving contract law should consult a licensed attorney in their jurisdiction and should not rely on anonymous message boards for legal advice.

    Generally speaking, the main issue on enforcing an oral agreement is the statute of frauds. Oral contracts are generally enforceable unless they fall under the statute of frauds. Contracts involving an interest in real property, contracts for the sale of goods worth more than $500, contracts to guaranty a debt and contracts that cannot be performed in less than a year are the most common examples of contracts that fall under the statute of frauds and must be in writing to be enforceable. In the case of a promise for a college scholarship, if the promise is for a scholarship for just one year, it can arguably be performed in under a year as the school year will run from the end of August through May. But if the promise is for more than a year, the statute of frauds will bar enforcement of the contract. Without a contract, there are equitable remedies (promissory estoppel, etc.), but those are complicated. There could be a claim for fraud if you can show that at the time the promise was made, the coach had no intention of keeping his word. That is a very difficult burden because the coach will probably always be able to show that things changed between the time of the promise and the time scholarships were awarded (budgets changed, needs changed, etc.).

    Then you have to consider sovereign/governmental immunity when dealing with a public school. This doctrine also varies from state to state. But in general, governmental entities are immune from suit for contractual liabilities. You actually have to get permission from the legislature to sue the government on a contract claim. There are various ways that immunity can be waived and some states craft different exceptions.
  • LookAtTheRules
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 10:40am CDT
    re: ncaa man
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    ncaa man wrote:

    New rules implemented in 2015. It's not permissible to reduce because of athletic performance reasons.

    That include after the year for renewals.

    Can you cite the Bylaw, please?
  • gnome de plume
    registered
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 11:03am CDT
    re: LookAtTheRules
    Forum Index
    LookAtTheRules wrote:

    ncaa man wrote:

    New rules implemented in 2015. It's not permissible to reduce because of athletic performance reasons.

    That include after the year for renewals.

    Can you cite the Bylaw, please?


    Yeah, I'm curious too as the NCAA site has the following language, which seems inconsistent with such a rule:

    "If a school plans to reduce or not renew a student-athlete’s aid, the school must notify the student-athlete in writing by July 1 and provide an opportunity to appeal. In most cases, coaches decide who receives a scholarship, the scholarship amount and whether it will be renewed."
    http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/future/scholarships
  • rojo
    cofounder
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 11:09am CDT
    re: Yes indeed
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    Yes indeed wrote:

    At my mid-pack D1 school in one of the big conferences, this happened to several people every year. People who had underperformed during the year always dreaded their year-end scholarship meeting with the head coach.

    Did you read the article? She didn't underperform. Before the year started, she says she asked them what she needed to do. She exceeded it and even scored at NCAA indoors.
  • Andy Dufresne
    registered
    3 years ago 06/09/2016 11:54am CDT
    re: rojo
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    It's almost like college athletes should get together and together, collectively, bargain for a set of rules that would protect them. I wonder what we would call it.