Awesome show !
Great Job !
Awesome show !
Great Job !
Why does the CAS hate women? Why is misogynist behaviour tolerated?
This is an incredible article, but it's beyond the upper limit for my normal internet reading. In fact, if I knew how long it was going in, I probably would not have started. I only made it to the end because of sunk cost. It is a really interesting piece and I was surprised to see Letsrun mentioned in the article. Rio is going to be a mess and the IOC/IAAF have themselves to blame. There is too much to sum up, but below are a few direct statements I found particularly interesting and which will share.
Editor's note: The following is all excerpts from the piece.
Caster Semenya is about as sure a gold medal bet as there is at this year’s Olympic Games. If I had one bet to make, and my life was at stake, I’d put in on her to win the 800m. This past weekend she just missed out on the Diamond League record, running 1:56.46, at a jog. A month ago, she won the 400m, 800m and 1500m at the SA champs, all on the same day. The 400m and 800m, 50 minutes apart, were run in 50.7s and 1:58, with a second lap faster than 60 seconds, suggesting that she could go much, much faster. I watched them in Stellenbosch and have never seen anything like it. The 400m was jogged until the last 100m, and could have been under 49 seconds, and the 800m could have been run in 1:55 if it was needed.
The division between men and women is clear. It is obviously significantly influenced by testosterone, and few physiological variables are as clearly (if imperfectly) separate like testosterone is. If that division is to be respected, as it should, then hyperandrogenic women should have some regulation in place.
would also like to relate a two-part epiphany that I had after my transition. In 2005, nine months after starting HRT, I was running 12% slower than I had run with male T levels; women run 10-12% slower than men over a wide range of distances. In 2006 I met another trans woman runner and the she had the same experience. I later discovered that, if aging is factored in, this 10-12% loss of speed is standard among trans women endurance athletes. The realization that one can take a male distance runner, make that runner hormonally female, and wind up with a female distance runner of the same relative capability was life changing for me.
While Caster Semenya has gotten most of the media attention, she is far from the only presumably intersex athlete to have competed at a very high level in athletics. In fact two of the three medalists in the 800 meter race at the recent indoor world championships are probably intersex. It is very possible that we could see an all intersex podium in the 800 in Rio, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see as many as five intersex women in the eight-person final. There are potential intersex medalists in other running events too. The mutations that we are talking about are very rare, and these women are hugely over-represented.
The other undesirable scenario I foresee is that transgender women might also be allowed to compete with unaltered testosterone levels. Most trans women desperately want to lower their T levels, but a minority of trans women would be willing compete against other women with male levels of testosterone. I have seen other trans women argue that if intersex women can compete unaltered, then we should get to do the same thing. This would be a nightmare, not only for the world’s female athletes, but also for those trying to increase acceptance for trans people everywhere.
TrackCoach wrote:
It is a really interesting piece and I was surprised to see Letsrun mentioned in the article..
Harper is our go-to sounding board on these issues for good reason. Not only has she made the transition from male to female, but she's also an elite athlete (2:23 marathon pb) and scientist.
She considers herself a “scientist first, an athlete second, and a transgender person thirdâ€.
Harper wrote a guest column for us in 2014:
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/09/brief-history-intersex-athletes-sport/PS. I' changed the title of the thread. It started with the title of "CASTER SEMENYA PERSPECTIVE ARTICLE"
Editor's note: We highly recommend this article as well but it's really long (7500 words) so you probably want to make sure you have at least 30 minutes free).
By far the best article I've read about the situation, I have to agree with Dr. Harper on this one. It's long, but very worth reading.
http://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/rojo wrote:
The article is quite good. I'll be brief ////9and write more when I wake up in the morning as I didn't realize it would take that long to read/0 and say one thing.
I think it's genius by her to point this out really as a women's rights issue. If you believe in the value of women's sports (which basically protects a subset of the population against high testosterone competitors) , then you pretty much need to be for some sort of treatment or in 5 years we'll have transgender men dominating as society is quickly evolving to the point that people can identify with whatever gender they like.
Seriously. They need to make a stand now. And then not go back on it! the transgender argument is pretty crazy to think about. "Women's" athletics could soon be much more competitive. Either way it's not fair for the real women. Unfortunately even writing that I feel some people will be upset with the real women statement. The treatment seemed to level the playing field. I guess you just have to put your foot down at some point and draw the line... And then not go back on it! Clear cut rules no matter who throws a fit about it.
Because 5 out of the 8 finalists in the 800 at the Rio Olympics could be transgender or "intergender."
"Either way it's not fair for the real women"
I agree and perhaps this article should be given to the IAAF and other governing bodies.
There are lots of considerations and the solution is not obvious. There does seem to be a way to do this though.
Great article, and I agree that CAS is crazy for disallowing testosterone limits in women.
That said, it's not fair to use the phrase "real women" to distinguish between Semenya and the vast majority of the women's field. By all accounts, Semenya is a "real woman," but simply has a extremely rare genetic condition where she produces a lot testosterone.
She is very different from the Canadian cyclist Kristen Worley, who was a man, had his sex changed, and now wants to use testosterone while competing as a woman.
Why should you care about using the phrase "real women"? Because currently the gender-rights groups carry the day in public policy debates. Part of the way they do this is by labeling any dissenting opinions as hate speech.
Yes, it's evil and disingenuous, but remember that the CAS is located in europe, and remember how they botched the Pistorious hearing because they were so afraid of the disabled-rights crowd.
In short, referring to Semenya as anything other than a "real woman" is inflammatory and does not help further the great objective discussion that Tucker and Harper are promoting.
The primary question for the moment is whether or not Semenya (and extreme genetic outliers like her) should be required to reduce her testosterone in order to compete with other women. And if so, what should the max T level be.
A secondary question is whether or not voluntary sex change athletes like Worley should be allowed to use artificial testosterone to bring their T levels up to those of seen in elite female athletes.
how do u know that it is not doping now with
igf-1 lr3 like s.african sprinters and test. levels within range .
more than just test. levels there is the androgen receptor.
and imagine higher density and activity at receptor too
rojo wrote:
I think it's genius by her to point this out really as a women's rights issue. If you believe in the value of women's sports (which basically protects a subset of the population against high testosterone competitors).
This is more relevant to sports where physical contact or combat is involved, and this is understandable because of the real safety issues involved. It is less relevant to track and field because the sport, in its essence, is more about personal development. Someone like Caster Semenya is not going to physically harm her competitors just because she runs faster than them. In this way it seems strange to "protect" a category of competitors from those than can run faster than them. If you follow this philosophy, then there is no end of subcategories that could be justifiably created in track and field - height, weight, etc etc .
Perhaps in your 22:00 5k world sports "is more about personal development." Semenya does indeed harm her competitors by stealing prize and sponsor dollars.You are correct that endless subcategories can be formed to "protect" competitors from those who can run faster than them. Your 45-49 Clydesdale division does just that, and it's designed so you'll feel better about yourself.But in elite sports, separate women's divisions have occurred since ancient Greece. Which means for 2500 years societies have been able to say that sex is the only protected class in elite sports. Nothing about this case indicates the slippery slope you cry wolf about.
burnt thumbs wrote:
This is more relevant to sports where physical contact or combat is involved, and this is understandable because of the real safety issues involved. It is less relevant to track and field because the sport, in its essence, is more about personal development. Someone like Caster Semenya is not going to physically harm her competitors just because she runs faster than them. In this way it seems strange to "protect" a category of competitors from those than can run faster than them. If you follow this philosophy, then there is no end of subcategories that could be justifiably created in track and field - height, weight, etc etc .
Why has no one mentioned Maria Mutola since all of this? That's the first thing that came to mind when all of this came to light in 2009. And if you remember her dominance. I don't think she lost a race in like 10 years! (Over exaggerating)
The article is quite good. I'll be brief and write more when I wake up in the morning as I didn't realize it would take that long to read and say one thing.
I think it's genius by her to point this out really as a women's rights issue. If you believe in the value of women's sports (which basically protects a subset of the population against high testosterone competitors) , then you pretty much need to be for some sort of treatment or in 5 years we'll have transgender men dominating as society is quickly evolving to the point that people can identify with whatever gender they like.
It's unfortunate that Semenya is not going to run the 400M at the Olympics. I think it could shed more light on this travesty if she was to beat one of the "darlings" of the sport, Allyson Felix.
Mutola definitely. Its strange how the 800 in particular attracts testosterone a enhanced women. Why not 200, 100?
I don't think IAAF can hide from this. I don't blame Caster either.
Maria Mutola was bulky but I still thought she was fully a woman.
Semenya needs to compete against men in order to be fair to women.
We just need two divisions of sports.
Women and open.
Semenya and the like would compete in the open sections.
A woman shouldn't have to compete against anyone that has any male hormones or could be enhanced by any male features.
So Semenya just needs to run 1:46 or better to compete in the Olympics then. Just like I would have to.
rojo wrote:
TrackCoach wrote:It is a really interesting piece and I was surprised to see Letsrun mentioned in the article..
Harper is our go-to sounding board on these issues for good reason. Not only has she made the transition from male to female, but she's also an elite athlete (2:23 marathon pb) and scientist.
She considers herself a “scientist first, an athlete second, and a transgender person thirdâ€.
Harper wrote a guest column for us in 2014:
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/09/brief-history-intersex-athletes-sport/PS. I' changed the title of the thread. It started with the title of "CASTER SEMENYA PERSPECTIVE ARTICLE"
Harper HAS NOT made the transition from male to female. Chromosomes cannot change.
2/10 since you got one reply.