Kiprop runs 1:44.70 TT at high altitude

Sorry, but your last idea is a speculation without any real knowledge of the reality. All the kenyan running under 3'30" in the recent years are completely clean, not depending on the management they belong, since this time is nothing special for athletes of top talent, when races are well pacing. I'm currently the coach of Silas Kiplagat and Ronald Kwemoi, and can guarantee that their talent has, for example, nothing to do with the talent of Manzano, who ran 3'30"98 in 2014, or with many athletes able running under 3'30" in the past. Asbel already ran under 3'30" for 6 times, with an average for his best 10 performances of 3'29"5 (and ran under 1'44" already 5 times, with average of 1'43"93 for his best 10 performances), Silas ran 4 times under 3'30" with average of 3'29"898 for his top 10 performances.

The fact they run fast essentially in Monaco is because there, for the date of the meeting, the weather, the situation (total sea level) and the perfect pacing (the organizer incests good money with pacers, something in all the other meeting doesn't happen), there are the best conditions and the best interest for running fast. The top athletes are not interested to run fast when there are not really possibilities to improve their PB running times which put them inside the best ever, but in other DL meetings they go for the position only. Monaco for 1500m is like Berlin for Marathon : top athletes know every situation is almost perfect every year, and have focus for running at their best in this occasion. But don't think 3'30" is a wonderful time for this kind of athletes : till now, already 31 athletes ran under that limit (and 34 under 1'43" in 800m, so you need to look at these results under different perspective). The fact is that, for knowing the real talent, you have to stay and work with them, otherwise you are amazed at what you see in competition, not knowing what they do in training.

I do not believe you factually know that all of the current top Kenyans are completely clean. Such blanket statements regarding athletes you do not coach or advise hurts your credibility.

Mr. Obvious, I specifically spoke about "all the athletes running under 3'30" in the last years". They are :

Asbel Kiprop 3'26"69 (coach Letting, with Rosa management)

Silas Kiplagat 3'27"64 (myself, management Demadonna)

Ronald Kwemoi 3'28"81 (myself, management Global of Jos Hermens)

Augustin Choge 3'29"47 (Brother Colm, management James Templeton)

Caleb Ndiku 3'29"50 (myself, management Jukka Harkonen)

Elijah Manangoi 3'29"67 (management Jukka Harkonen)

Nixon Chepseba 3'29"77 (Patrick Sang, management Michel Boiteng)

About ALL these athletes, I bett my credibility that they are clean, because I know about them many particulars posters of LR of course don't know.

I have the considerations every my athlete does about the other, and, since when there is some "rumor" (such as sometimes happens with other athletes) they are able to tell me something about it (because among them everything happens is not a secret...), I can know from them who is ABSOLUTELY clean, who is PROBABLY clean and who is PROBABLY dirty.

These are ABSOLUTELY clean.

El Keniano wrote:

Here he is checking his Garmin at 400m.

https://twitter.com/RunEmilyERun/status/721052573667573760

Probably at 200m or 600m. Wouldn't they have a clock at 400m?

Mo Farah?

Metric Miler wrote:

No I'm sorry. I'm sorry you don't understand the real world and that in Liberia there is very little opportunity to take part in sport at all. Are you going to tell me that Liberians aren't naturally good at rugby/basketball/cycling as they have little international representation there also? Do you know how poor Liberia and Ghana are?

What about Mo Farah, he is from Somalia. Ever heard of great distance running talent from Somalia? No there is none so I guess they don't have the genes for it?

Do you think the reason Europeans and North Americans dominate cycling is down to some Caucasian cycling gene?

This is rubbish. Running is the easiest sport to adopt. If you have a knack for running you will find a space to run. One of the reasons Africans excel at running is precisley because you do not need much to adopt it. If you live in a rural area of Liberia or Senegal or Cameroon, you will find plenty of space around you to run.

And believe me there are plenty of West Africans trying. I recently witnessed the Lagos marathon.

You are a complete imbecile who can't even read. I never said there was a javelin culture in Eldoret. Go learn how to read doofus.

Boomsauce wrote:

I still can't believe that makhloufi training video. Wow.

You fancy the camerawork?

It's nonsense to suggest that Monaco is the only meet that has decent pacers each year. If the big name athletes want a given pace at any DL race, they will get it. Almost all top 800's with Rudisha in it had pacers going through the first lap sub 50, for several seasons in recent years. Similar for the 1500. There is always decent pace set in Oslo, Zurich, Brussels, etc. It doesn't always mean the elites follow it, but more often than not the organisers lay on decent pacing.

It is ludicrous stating that the athletes only believe it will be decent pace in Monaco.

It's also usually in July, a few weeks before a championship. Why would athletes be prepared to be at a peak to run fastest times then as opposed to a few weeks later at the champs and the lucrative races that follow straight after?

It is also silly to believe that the weather will be any better there than is all the other meets.

No, the reason they all go for pbs in Monaco as opposed to traditionally more popular meets is because the athletes know how fast the track is for middle distances.

Plenty of space to run about, whilst making money how...?

And when you have decided you are good enough, do you just call up Monaco, ask for a go having a run around their circuits and to pay for travel, bed and board?

Maybe you know better than me the way for putting athletes at the top of their shape when there is some Championships. However, I give you some further info.

In the calendar, Kenyan athletes looking at Olympics have to follow one important appointment : Kenyan Trials, which are planned for the days 29th June - 30th June and 1st July.

Since Trials are in altitude, the athletes looking at Olympics must be in training in Kenya for the last 3 weeks, otherwise, also for a Kenyan, the lack of adaptation doesn't allow to reach the best level of shape.

This means that, during the period of June, the last competition they can have is Birmingham on 5th June. After this, they must be concentrated in their Training (and this is what happens every year, with WCh or Olympics).

Before June there is not yet the best shape : top athletes have to peak for the end of the month and the beginning of July, and after this need to maintain their shape for about 40-50 days including Olympic Games.

For that reason, meetings as Oslo (9th June) and Stockholm (16th June) are not available for any attempt of fast pace, when we speak about the best Kenyan runners. After Trials, there are still two DL : Monaco (15th July) and London (22nd July),where 1500m for men are not a competition of DL. So, Monaco is a "must" for athletes who want to try their PB before any Championship in summer.

What after Olympics ? There are DL in Lausanne on 25th July (longest distance 1000m and 3000 steeple for men), Paris on 27th (without 1500m), Zurich on 1st September (again without 1500m) and finally Bruxelles on 9th September, which is the only other opportunity after Monaco.

For speaking, you need to know the calendars, and the dynamics at the base of every choice. You speak about theory, not knowing anything about the reality, and for that reason your posts are useless in terms to give some idea about the right or wrong strategies of the top athletes.

Metric Miler wrote:

Plenty of space to run about, whilst making money how...?

And when you have decided you are good enough, do you just call up Monaco, ask for a go having a run around their circuits and to pay for travel, bed and board?

They would make money the exact same way that Kenyans make money you clown.

Look if there was talent in west Africa, European agents would be in Liberia, Mali and elsewhere setting up training camps the same way they do in Kenya and Ethiopia.

The reason European agents don't west time in West Africa or Jamaica is precisely because there is no distance talent there.

Please engage your brain. European agents want to make money. If there is talent in West Africa, believe me they will dig it up.

You are just making up numbers. And then making up other numbers based on those made up numbers.

OK,I pretty much always try to remain agnostic about doping, in that I don't know who is and who isn't and try to refrain from alleging anybody is doping without evidence (which I wouldn't have). So it is possible they are all clean. It made sense to me that you would defend your own athletes on the basis that you were with them at all times and knew what they were doing. Now you are defending other athletes basically on the basis of the rumor mill. I think that is a poor basis, but it is possible that functions very differently in Kenyan society than it does in the US and you would certainly know more about it than I do. I wouldn't lay my credibility on the line based on trusting the gossip/rumors going around.Just some factual information to consider--Rosa, manager of Kiprop, was also the manager of Kisorio and Jeptoo. Brother Colm coached Lydia Cheromei.Hermens has managed a few athletes convicted of doping, with many, many rumors swirling around him. Doesn't men any or all of their other athletes are doping.Also, I wonder if you have so much knowledge of who is probably doping what action you are taking? Are you reporting them to WADA?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

You are just making up numbers. And then making up other numbers based on those made up numbers.

Well observed. The kind of reasoning that should cause people to erupt into laughter; had Ventolin not already exhausted everyone with his antics.

Coach Renato.

I asked on a seperate thread about carbohydrate loading in week prior to marathon.

Do your runners do the carb depletion stage or simply increase carbs in days leading upto a marathon?

I appreciate that the Kenyans are away training for most of June, but all the dates you refer to are for this forthcoming season. Why are you using races that haven't happened yet to back up your comments?

Last year we had your guy, Kiplagat, running a 3:30.12 in Saint Denis, with 10 more lower than 3:33.

There was a 1500 in Stockholm last year, which was on the 30.7, and Souleiman won in 3:33.

There were also 1500 races in Zurich and Brussels that any of the elites could have run in, and its not as if either of those tracks have never had fast middle distance runs on them.

In 2014 there was a 3:30 from Kiplagat in Rome in early June, a mile in Oslo, another place with a history of fast times, and 3:31's in Lausanne, Brussels and Rieti. There was another 3:30 in Rieti in 2013 and a 3:29 by a Kenyan in Hengelo in May 2012.

So that's 10 different tracks that have thrown up reasonably fast 1500s in the past 4 seasons. And any of those track's meet directors would be bending over backwards to accommodate any of the elites who want to go for a record. Guys like Willis, Centrowitz, etc, would surely prefer and go and run a 3:30 and win in Lausanne or Hengelo than run the same time in coming 7th or 8th in Monaco, which must do wonders for their confidence and give them a psychological advantage over a Kenyan who is 30m further up the track. The fact that these 3:30 runners don't even bother to set a pb and try running a 3:28, makes me think that they all know they aren't capable of it.

I don't think Kiplagat or Kiprop have even broken 3:29 on any track other than Monaco! And the only other track in which they've marginally broken 3:30 is Doha in early May. Which is such a great time of year to be running near peak times.

In the last 9 seasons (since the end of 2006) , no one has broken 3:29.0 on any track apart from Monaco.

There have been only 7 performances between 3:29.0 and 3:30.0 in that same length of time not set on the Monaco track. And 4 of those were in Doha in May! The only 2 non Doha, non Monaco sub 3:30's run in the last 9 years were: Choge in Berlin~ 3:29.47, 2009, Chepseba in Hengelo ~ 3:29.90, 2012.

So, since 2006, there have been:

20 sub 3:30's run in Monaco

4 in Doha

2 in all the other tracks of the world.

You say that 3:30 is 'nothing' for the Kenyan elites. I would beg to differ.

Do you not think it even marginally strange that in the past 9 seasons only 2 Kenyans have marginally broken 3:30 on the tracks of Europe other than Monaco? There are probably a dozen top meets (and they don't have to be Diamond League events) - Hengelo, Oslo, Stockholm, Paris, Rome, Lausanne, Zurich, Brussels, Rieti, London, etc - where it wouldn't be difficult for a Kiprop or Kiplagat or Souleiman or Iguider, to ask for someone to pace them through splits of 55, 1:51, 2:33. With such depth in middle distance running these days, the only thing stopping them is the desire to go out and do it.

Even if we take just 10 meets a year, that's 90 possible occasions in the past 9 years for an elite to run sub 3:30. Apart from Monaco and Doha, this has been achieved just twice.

That seems at the least very strange and unusual.

Mr. Obvious, a quick explanation about the athletes you named.

1) The fact some management has some athletes caught for doping doesn't mean it's involved in this fact. In the case of Rosa, I already explained how Claudio Berardelli lived in Eldoret, had a camp in Kaptagat, but both Rita Jeptoo and Mathew Kisorio lived in their own house, and of course it's not possible to have any control about the time athletes are not in training, if they don't live in some training camp. Rosa had also Amantle Montsho doped, but she was the only athlete he had from Botswana, the management didn't have any local coach in Botswana (she trained in a IAAF center) and only managed her activity under bureaucratic side. Asbel never was in training with Kisorio or Rita, so there are no connections among many athletes of the same management. The fact to belong to the same management doesn't mean athletes are training together, athletics is an individual activity, not a team activity.

2) Brother Colm followed Lydia Cheromei only during her beginning, till when she was 18 in 1995. She was officially "doped" in 2005, and this was only a bureaucratic mistake. Lydia, already 27, wanted to have a baby, and started a therapy for stimulating the ovulation, taking CLOMIPHENE, without knowing the pharmac contains some substance which is doping. Because she knew was no longer in training and quitted competitions, she forgot (or thought it was not important) to communicate the antidoping about the assumption of the pharmac. After 7 months from the antidoping test, she had her baby, and this seems to be evidence enough that the pharmac was not a PED, but had a different target.....

Lydia didn't compete in 2005-2006-2007 and 2008, coming back in 2009 looking for Marathon, event she never ran before. We have to refuse absolutely the idea she was doped, but for the rules of IAAF the fact remains in the book, despite the clear innocence of the athlete.

3) Jos Hermens is the most passionated manager in athletics, and absolutely one of the cleanest persons I know in the athletic world. He had many athletes of top level, some of them was connected with his management only (as the case of Kathrin Krabbe and Grit Breuer, or Ana Guevara, for example), some other instead had with him a relation as father-son, or as elder Brother (Haile and Kenenisa). I Always found a person totally at the service of the athletes, in order to prepare for them the best situation for reaching the best results, and Always in clean way. He is an idealist, and strongly believes in the educative values of athletics.

When some people look at him as "suspicious manager", I really feel bad, because I know how clean he is, and how much passion he puts in his job, which he considered as a "mission". For example, all the managers want to have the best athletes under contract, and put some officially "penalty" in case the athlete wants to change management during the season (normally 5000 USD, but for the best athletes also 20000 USD). Jos Hermens, instead, doesn't put any penalty : his phylosophy is that the athletes must be happy to work with Global Communication (his management), and, if they are not happy, are free to change in any period of the season. It's absolutely wrong to look at him as a manager having in the money his priority.

OK,I posted about the coaching and management of those athletes because you specifically identified them in the thread. I believe that you were indicating that their coaching and management had something to say about whether they could possibly be doping or not. Or whether you would know if they were doping or not. It is possible I misunderstood the reason that you listed their coach and management. Were you implying that you know because you and your athletes have connections with their coach/athletes and trusted those representations?Did you know that Rita Jeptoo and Mathew Kirosrio were doping before they tested positive?What are you doing about the athletes that you think are "probably doping?" Are you reporting those concerns to WADA?