It's too damn hard to run a sub 5 mile

silvery gold wrote:

Keep updating this thread. I think there are a lot of us "normal" human specimens lurking on LR that can't run 4:15 on 10 mpw, even though reading the message boards would have me convinced otherwise. It's great to see others working toward this goal. I'm pulling for you too!

Thanks! I ran another 1500 race last night. I originally wasn't that enthusiastic about it since everyone else's seed times (3:53 - 4:23) indicated that I'd DFL by a huge margin. But I figured that I might as well make the most out of the limited racing opportunities in my area this season.

The field went through the first 300 in a lightning fast (for me) 44"-49", and then disappeared out of sight. I got pulled along to a 55.01" (300m) and a ~73" (400m), which was still uncomfortably fast for me. I then backed off the pace a bit, but to my surprise, I was gaining on one other guy. I passed him shortly after 700m (2:12.78", 77.78" lap) and before 800m (~2:31).

With one lap to go, I glanced at the clock on the infield, which read 3:27 (my official 1100m and previous lap splits were 3:27.60 / 74.82"). I'm a bit ticked off at this point because my 700m and 1100m splits were virtually identical to what I got the week before, and I didn't do an additional week of tapering just to end up with the same result.

I started kicking it in and hit the 1200m mark at 3:44, which was an improvement over last week's 3:45. The good and bad news was that there was no one within 100m of me in either direction on the track. It was good because I didn't need to run more distance to pass people (which I had to do last week on a curve); it was bad because there was nobody to chase or be chased by. I setted a goal of sub 4:40 on the fly, even though I was too exhausted to do the math and figure out how fast I had to run in order to get there.

I hugged the inside lane, powered through the lactic acid, and crossed the finish line in a new PR of 4:39.05 (71.45" last lap). I'm happy with that time and am completely sure that I could have run a sub 5 1600 last night if I had to. But sub 5 for the full 1609ish meters? I don't know; it would have been close.

The official results are below. Even though I pretty much got destroyed, it was cool to run in the same race as a 3:45 guy. I can now say that I raced someone whose time was 4.2 seconds faster than the winning time in the 2016 Olympic final.

Nice! That's progress in the right direction. Even if you are at 5:02 right, the goal is within striking distance! Also, very encouraging that your last lap was sub-5 pace.

Finally, praise for finding all these track meets during COVID times. I've seen a few road miles in my area, but these track meets are far and few between. I'm jealous!

But really, it looks like you'll get there if you keep at it.

by most accepted conversions, your 1500 time would be a 5:01.37 (multiply 1500 time by 1.08), and if it makes you feel any better, that would be sub 5 for 1600 (generally around 1.5 seconds shorter)...

nice job,

cush

On the 2017 men's IAAF tables,

456 points = 4:39.09 1500 = 5:01.01 mile

457 points = 4:38.98 1500 = 5:00.89 mile

By interpolation, a 4:39.05 1500 would be a 5:00.97 mile.

The women's IAAF tables are even more sub 5 friendly:

912 points = 4:39.11 1500 = 5:00.20 mile

913 points = 4:38.97 1500 = 5:00.05 mile

Interpolation would result in a 5:00.14 mile (!) for the OP's 4:39.05.

Both of them lean a bit more in the sub 5 mile direction than the commonly accepted "multiply by 1.08" 5:01.37 mile conversion that socalcush mentioned earlier. All three conversions would give the OP a clear sub 5 1600.

Good job, OP. You mentioned something about tapering, so how were your last few weeks like? I think that would help a lot of the "normal human specimen" folks on here who are shooting for sub 5.

Thanks, everyone!

Yeah, finding those track meets has been tricky. The ones in the So Cal area where I live usually require a PCR test within 2-3 days of competition, though you might be able to get away with showing proof of vaccination if you're fully vaccinated. There are a few states (mostly in the midwest and south) which don't require testing, but the typically windy and/or rainy weather there makes it harder to go sub 5.

I'm definitely willing to fly across the country to compete, but only if my current fitness, the weather forecasts, testing requirements, etc. are in my favor.

My peak mileage week was 29 MPW on the week of March 14-20. February was at or slightly above 25 MPW, IIRC. Those higher mileage weeks weren't just mileage. Sundays and Wednesdays were long-ish runs, Mondays had shorter runs and full recovery 200m repeats in 30"-31", Tuesdays were moderately easy runs, Thursdays were typically off days, Fridays had shorter runs and 100m strides, and Saturdays were for time trials and/or intervals.

I ran a solo 3:43.0 1200m on March 20, dropped the mileage to 15 MPW the following week, and did a few longer runs and hard workouts the last few days in March. April's schedule was:

April 1 - off

April 2 - 1.3 mile run and 4 or 5 100m strides

April 3 - warmed up and raced a 4:40.52 1500. Cooldown was a very short ~300m jog.

April 4 - 1.75 miles easy

April 5 - 6x100 in 15-16", walkback recovery, 2.5 mile run

April 6 - 800m warmup, 2 100m strides, 600m solo time trial in a low 1:37, 2.5 mile run

April 7 - 2 100m strides, 4.6 mile run

April 8 - off

April 9 - 1.8 mile run, 200m in 36", 200m in 34", 100m in 16" (walkback recovery), very easy 200m cooldown jog

April 10 - warmed up, ran a tiny bit more than 200m at ~4:30/mile pace in trainers. Slowly walked back, took my time changing into spikes, did a short easy stride, and raced a 4:39.05 1500.

silvery gold wrote:

chasing a white whale wrote:

Congrats, and don't give up!

What were your PRs in other distances? Your average MPW? Your height, weight, and approximate body fat percentage? How were the conditions like when you ran your 5:06? (splits / pacing, competition, weather, footwear, road mile or track mile, etc.).

You're incredibly close to a sub 5; maybe you have a weak point that we can identify and fix which will do the trick.

400m: 63-64, 3k: 11:0X, 5k: 18:5X, so obviously not as strong with distance. The race was done on a road in flats, but interestingly I've never gone sub 5:20 on a track. Maybe I wasn't as "peaked" as for the road races, or maybe I just wasn't as amped up as with a crowd. The course was certified, so don't think it was short, but who knows.

Besides your 5:06, have you run sub 5:15 on any other certified road courses? If so, I'd say the 5:06 is legit. If not, I'd re-measure it on Google Earth / Maps and check to see if it's a net downhill course (if you clearly remember that course).

FWIW, I don't think I could go sub 19 right now if my life depended on it, so you'd beat me in the 5K. The 3K would be a tossup, as I have no idea whether or not I can run 11:0x in an actual race with spikes. The closest reference I have would be my 8:52.0 solo 1.5 mile / 2414m time trial, which I ran in trainers on 2/13/2021.

socalcush wrote:

by most accepted conversions, your 1500 time would be a 5:01.37 (multiply 1500 time by 1.08), and if it makes you feel any better, that would be sub 5 for 1600 (generally around 1.5 seconds shorter)...

nice job,

cush

Nitpicking here, but that 1.5 second conversion is only good for times that are in the low 4 minute/mile range. At 5:00/mile pace, the conversion is closer to 1.8 seconds, which is good news for the OP since it would put him even further below 5:00 for the 1600.

If the OP ran a 5:01.37 mile and maintained the same pace throughout the race, he'd pass the 1600m mark in:

5:01.37 = 301.37 seconds = 301.37*(1600m/1609.344m) = 299.62 seconds = 4:59.62

Congrats man. That time is worth a sub 5 mile. I think you'll be able to go sub 5 in the next full mile you run.

I've actually never run a mile competition outside of the race in question since most races in the region are 5k and up. Centro and Jenny Simpson have competed in the race in question and didn't set a PR, so I'm hopeful because of that that it is accurate, but it's certainly possible that I'm actually 15-20 s off the mark instead of 6.

I've done a 1.5 mile race in 8:22 in spikes, so while I may have a little more endurance, you can destroy me in speed since on my best day I'm 50m behind you on a 400. But that makes sense given that you are doing more low mileage, high intensity workouts.

Anyway, I'm really happy to have stumbled onto this thread. I've been sorta resigned to the fact that I'll continue to fail to break 5, and I'm finally feeling just a tad optimistic again, so I appreciate you for that. Hoping sub-5 is in your future soon and that I can follow it as well!

Glad to have provided a bit of inspiration. Let us know if you run sub 5 and/or PR; we need a success story out of this thread!

silvery gold wrote:

The race was done on a road in flats, but interestingly I've never gone sub 5:20 on a track. Maybe I wasn't as "peaked" as for the road races, or maybe I just wasn't as amped up as with a crowd. The course was certified, so don't think it was short, but who knows. Weather was nice (September), and there were people running between 4:30 and 8+.

YMMV, but I'd suggest racing the mile on an indoor track in winter. More noise from spectators/coaches/teammates, and no concerns with distances or weather.

hope to be fast wrote:

Interesting...what is your current 5k time?

In case anyone's interested in an update, I ran a 19:56.3 5K a few hours ago. This was a solo run in trainers, and the effort level was somewhere between a hard tempo and an all-out time trial. I didn't taper for it or do any 5K-specific workouts.

masters sub5 wrote:

With your speed you could run sub5 doing with 35 mpw.

Sub 5 in 5 easy steps wrote:

He ran a 5:07 without exceeding 25 MPW, so he could probably do it off of 30 MPW. It's more of a mental battle at this point.

Just finished a 30 MPW week. It's been pretty cool the past few days (unlike most of the summer), so I'm actually feeling quite fresh now.

Sun - 6.75 miles

Mon - 2.5 miles, 3x300m with walkback recovery

Tues - 5.25 miles

Wed - 5.75 miles

Thurs - off

Fri - 3.25 miles, 12x100m strides

Sat - 800m warmup, 2x100m strides, 5K in 19:56.3, 2400m cooldown

Total - 30 MPW

I don't think I'm that far off a sub 5 mile right now and could probably do it in late September if there were an all-comers meet at that time. But the only mile race I've found so far (in the September - November timeframe) was this one on November 7:

I'll post a video if I can somehow pull off a solo sub 5 before then.

elusive dreams wrote:

In case anyone's interested in an update, I ran a 19:56.3 5K a few hours ago. This was a solo run in trainers, and the effort level was somewhere between a hard tempo and an all-out time trial.

Just finished a 30 MPW week. It's been pretty cool the past few days (unlike most of the summer), so I'm actually feeling quite fresh now.

Sun - 6.75 miles

Mon - 2.5 miles, 3x300m with walkback recovery

Tues - 5.25 miles

Wed - 5.75 miles

Thurs - off

Fri - 3.25 miles, 12x100m strides

Sat - 800m warmup, 2x100m strides, 5K in 19:56.3, 2400m cooldown

Total - 30 MPW

The everyman's guide to a sub 5:

"I needed to run a lot more, around 30 miles per week to build strength.

I kept carefully to his plan, which ­included easy five-mile jogs twice a week, a weekly ten-mile run, a three-mile tempo run at a 6:15 pace, hill intervals, and 100- and 200-meter sprints

A good rule of thumb: 80 percent of your runs should be easy, and the other 20 percent should be hard tempo runs, sprints, or hill work."

30 MPW? Check.

Short sprints? Check.

3 mile tempo at 6:15 pace? Not quite (your 19:56 5K would need to be a 19:30 5K)

10 mile long run? Nope.

80 % easy / 20% hard runs? Not too far off.

I'd say you're in 5:05 - 5:10 shape now.

elusive dreams wrote:

In case anyone's interested in an update, I ran a 19:56.3 5K a few hours ago. This was a solo run in trainers, and the effort level was somewhere between a hard tempo and an all-out time trial. I didn't taper for it or do any 5K-specific workouts.

The only mile race I've found so far ....is this one on November 7:

https://dashnzap.com/

I'll post a video if I can somehow pull off a solo sub 5 before then.

Good work!

If you have a mile race in November, would you consider doing a longer session at 5K or 10K pace once a week for the next 6-8 weeks, instead of a shorter distance workout? Seb Coe used to say 5k paced work was key for him, as he could get the endurance he needed without running a lot of mileage.

This could be just a regular run with a measured 5k segment in 21-22:00 (a classic tempo run), or it could be broken tempo - 4-6 x 1 kilometre reps. Either way, slow it down a bit - 4:20 per kilometre and get used to cruising at that effort. You'll probably see distinct progress in that session every week, since "everything works for six weeks". Then with 3 weeks to go and more endurance, do sessions at 800 pace, 1500 pace and 3000 pace.

Sub-5 is my target this winter as well.

All-out 5k time would need to be a closer to 18:30-19:00 for sub-5 imo.

big daddy wrote:

All-out 5k time would need to be a closer to 18:30-19:00 for sub-5 imo.

I just PR'd with a 11:57 2 mile solo time trial in trainers today. Does that equate to a sub 19 5K in a race with spikes and good pacers? Either way, it feels great to have run sub 12 for both the shortest (11.98 100m, FAT) and the longest (11:53 3200m) events that are commonly run in outdoor HS track.

FWIW, I ran a 12:30 3200 and a 5:15 1600 in Jan-Feb. 2015, so I might be in sub 5 shape now.

Splits that I remember:

1000 - 3:43

1600 - 5:59

2419 - 9:03

3000 - 11:10

3219m - 11:57.6

Last week's log:

Sunday (8/29) - 7.75 mile long run

Monday (8/30) - 3 mile run, 5x200m at mile pace

Tuesday (8/31) - off

Wednesday (9/1) - 800m warm up, 2x100 at mile pace. 350m in 59", 3 min. rest, 350m in 61", 2 min. rest, 340m in 61", 1 min. rest, 200m in 36". 4.5 mile cooldown.

Thursday (9/2) - 6.75 mile run

Friday (9/3) - 4x100m, 4.5 mile cooldown

Saturday (9/4) - 800m warm up, 2x100 at mile pace, 2 miles in 11:57.6, 5000m cooldown

Total - 34 MPW

I might bite the bullet and hop in an 8K XC race later this month and/or in October. Will post a TFRRS results link and a race recap if I do.

elusive dreams.... wrote:

big daddy wrote:

All-out 5k time would need to be a closer to 18:30-19:00 for sub-5 imo.

I just PR'd with a 11:57 2 mile solo time trial in trainers today. Does that equate to a sub 19 5K in a race with spikes and good pacers? Either way, it feels great to have run sub 12 for both the shortest (11.98 100m, FAT) and the longest (11:53 3200m) events that are commonly run in outdoor HS track.

11:57 2 mile = 19:02 5K (246 men's IAAF points)

11:57 2 mile = 19:14 5K (722 women's IAAF points)

Spikes and race-day adrenaline says yes, your weakness at longer distances says no.

OP , i have seen your Youttube videos from 2016.

Did you improve that subpar running form? (did not read everything here)

That alone would have done the trick.