I know some people on here are/were trained by Tinman. But, how many are now thinking of trying his program? Likewise, how many of you are going to buy Tinman's book (that he helped co-author with Pete Magill): "Building a Running Body"? How about using his pace calculator on his website (http://www.runningprs.com/calculator.html)?
(No, this is NOT an advertisement for Tinman, but wanted to give links & additional help to others interested in his training plans.)
Would his training work for other programs than the 5K, specifically faster track races such as the 1600 & 3200?
I think I might guinea pig on myself to see how it goes.
How Many of You are Now Going to Try Tinman's Training Plans of Critical Velocity?
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Really tempted now, although I consider myself a disciple of Hudson, the age is after me, and I need to do more and more on the cross training side to slow the decay than Hudson typically advocates.
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Who?
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I had bought the book before knowing who tinman was or that there was any author other than magill. There isn't any reference to CV in there, seems more magill's ideas (fartleks and hills and wobble board).
I am going to try a CV workout though. Mostly because I don't have anything specific I am training for and they seem pretty good for non-specific training. Do people base their CV pace off of mile fitness or longer race distance fitness? Obviously I think calculators would put CV faster for people off of their mile time. -
CV is better based off of a longer race than the mile. 5k is good. 2 mile is fine too during track season. If the mile is the longest race you have to go on, and the athlete is more speed oriented, you will need to slow down the CV pace predicted by Tom's calculator.
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This emphasis on CV pace sounds eerily similar to the training that took place during the "Dark Ages" of distance running during the 90's where people abandoned mileage and started training at scientific paces.
I've read a lot of the original training threads from letsrun when they were really good, 10 or so years ago. TinMan had a lot of good contributions to those threads.
But I find it strange to hear a coach just praise ONE training pace as the Magic pill.
Making it out to be a magic bullet. -
never heard of cv before drew wrote:
Do people base their CV pace off of mile fitness or longer race distance fitness? Obviously I think calculators would put CV faster for people off of their mile time.
You should base your CV pace off your CV fitness. How fast can you run for 30-35 minutes if you toed the line in a race that day instead of running a workout? You should also adjust the pace for weather, shoes, surface, and similar. -
Let's not over-simplify or over-generalize things....nowhere does Tom Schwartz say that CV is a magic bullet and the ONLY pace to train at. In his means of prescribing training it might be the primary pace in the majority of workouts to help achieve improvements associated with both LT and vVo2max, but it is just one training pace of many he and most everyone else uses in training.
He advocates tempo runs, although his tempo runs also tend to be slower than other people's definition of tempo runs.
He advocates faster reps like vo2 max, and mile pace and 800 pace. He just tends to prescribe less of that than might be considered "contemporarily traditional."
He advocates volume, but instead of running the 100% maximum any individual can handle, he feels that a marginally lower percentage of that will give you MOST of the physiological improvement, but MUCH lower risk of injury.
He advocates consistent and moderate training over time to both stay healthy and allow for natural progression, through a variety of paces. He advocates nothing too harsh that pushes the envelope toward injury through either excessive volume, or excessive intensity.
There are many ways to train, most coaches know all the ingredients, and most coaches combine them in similar yet slightly unique ways when compared to one another.
As someone that had been a "speed/power" coach for more than a decade, I wanted to expand my skill set into endurance and cross country coaching. Tom was a mentor that helped to explain complex things in simple enough way to speed up my development as a distance coach. I consider that the sign of a good teacher. Almost a decade later I am incredibly happy with the successes we have had in both the "speed/power" events and in the endurance events. I too have my own slant on things now, but Tom's teaching was my starting point.
He feels strongly about the things he has studied and learned, and the personal slants he has put into his training design based on research and practice. Like with any coach, the more "talented" your athletes are when they show up at you door, the more likely you are to have success. So now that Drew Hunter is working with him, he is receiving (rightfully so in my opinion) more attention.
My opinion is he is also not doing anything "special" with Drew that he hasn't done with local master's runners he has worked with for years. It's just that the local master's runners improvements don't garner national attention.
Using his calculator, in my opinion is a good idea. If you have followed the message board opinions you will see that many people have reactions like "that seems too easy, or too slow, or too little volume." If you read interviews from Tom you will see that his opinion tends to be that a lot of people tend to overdo it with harsh volumes or harsh intensities. So that is just part of his slant on training design.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone is entitled to implement, or experiment with or learn about any kind of training they want. Nobody is intentionally trying to advocate BAD ideas. Nobody intentionally tries to prescribe ineffective training to their athletes.
Just be careful not to over-generalize something based on your currently incomplete understanding of the full topic. enjoy learning and sharing. -
I like your post.
You seem like a good coach.
Everyone on this letsrun board could write a theoretical training plan to get anyone to PR. It's pretty easy to write a sample weeks of workout on paper.
what is difficult is putting that week in the context of race goals and every other previous week of training. This is where a good wholistic coach comes in. They are able to make sound adjustments to work on a athletes weakenesses and deal with unforseen problems. -
easy wrote:
This emphasis on CV pace sounds eerily similar to the training that took place during the "Dark Ages" of distance running during the 90's where people abandoned mileage and started training at scientific paces.
I've read a lot of the original training threads from letsrun when they were really good, 10 or so years ago. TinMan had a lot of good contributions to those threads.
But I find it strange to hear a coach just praise ONE training pace as the Magic pill.
Making it out to be a magic bullet.
No, Tinman was getting hammered on letsrun for 10 years, before he went away.
So, he produces one decent runner, and now he's a hero. -
Marc Nenow - American 10k record for 15 years.
"The great thing about Nenow is that he just did a lot of fast, continuous running, with very little focus on interval or track training." -
The CV stuff is all well and good, but with the information given, there's little context to actually construct a week/season. With the information given, It's certainly appealing for me to run 20-25 minutes at 10k pace instead of running 10-15 miles at marathon pace, or 5-7 miles at half marathon pace (usually what I consider tempo runs).
It's also appealing to wean off 'hard' interval sessions, and instead mix in some relaxed but quick (mile pace) 200 m repeats with ample rest throughout the week.
How many CV runs a week does he prescribe (1-2)?
What intensity does he recommend for long runs?
What intensity does he recommend for recovery runs?
How does he peoridize (sp?) over a season? -
I do a Critical Velocity Expulsion every morning before running.
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Everyone gets hammered on Letsrun because there are so many trolls, not that there is anything wrong with that.
fred seems to be the troll of February, 2016 -
Some guy comes along and renames workouts that people have already been doing for 30 years, and the rubes go " wow man, that's amazing " " we'll be running 51 minute 10 mile training runs in no time "
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fred wrote:
Some guy comes along and renames workouts that people have already been doing for 30 years, and the rubes go " wow man, that's amazing " " we'll be running 51 minute 10 mile training runs in no time "
Hey, none of us our claiming that we're just going to wake up one day and be a Jill Greathouse or something just because of one workout. We're here trying to get ideas about how to run better -
fred wrote:
Marc Nenow - American 10k record for 15 years.
"The great thing about Nenow is that he just did a lot of fast, continuous running, with very little focus on interval or track training."
Once he added in mile repeats at 10k pace or a little slower, he broke the 10000m AR.
If you look at training from the mid 70s-early 80s, quite a few of the big guys did this sort of CV stuff regularly -- look at the logs for Bill Rodgers or Bob Hodge, for example.
This is neither to slight Tinman's work in attempting to figure out some physiological basis for his CV idea, nor his apparent success in applying it. -
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phase 3 wrote:
fred wrote:
Marc Nenow - American 10k record for 15 years.
"The great thing about Nenow is that he just did a lot of fast, continuous running, with very little focus on interval or track training."
Once he added in mile repeats at 10k pace or a little slower, he broke the 10000m AR.
If you look at training from the mid 70s-early 80s, quite a few of the big guys did this sort of CV stuff regularly -- look at the logs for Bill Rodgers or Bob Hodge, for example.
This is neither to slight Tinman's work in attempting to figure out some physiological basis for his CV idea, nor his apparent success in applying it.
Yeah, so why call it CV. It was standard training. Do you know how many guys that were cranking workouts in the 80's. Joe Blows that you never heard of
What success? . Show me 10 guys that Tinman produced that are running 2:11 to 2:14. -
"How Many of You are Now Going to Try Tinman's Training Plans of Critical Velocity?"
How's this? I ran pace like that when Tinman was wearing diapers. And so did
100 other guys. If not thousands. It was a running boom. -
We get it, you don't like him. You don't need to make it your personal crusade, guy.
