SERIOUS DISCUSSION ONLY - Ryan Hall, Albert Salazar, Alan Webb, and Fatigue

This is correct. Loss of the love for training is as debilitating as any physical malady. Read the RW interview. He admits that they can't pinpoint a physical issue and his testosterone levels are no worse than when he ran a sub 60 half. He's doing what a lot of ex competitive runners do once they lose the fire for running, lifting weights, getting big, removing himself from the grind. One day the urge will come back. Maybe he'll want to pursue running again at that point.

I read somewhere that one side effect of long term Thyroid medication is a drop in T-levels. Can anyone confirm this?

E.A wrote:

If you're going to call out Rupp, why don't you call out Dathan Ritzenhein, Abdi, Meb, and Deena?

Because Rupp is claimed to be on a forever cycle of improvement, and his workouts are far more intense than the four names you listed.

Gonna Call Out wrote:

E.A wrote:

If you're going to call out Rupp, why don't you call out Dathan Ritzenhein, Abdi, Meb, and Deena?

Because Rupp is claimed to be on a forever cycle of improvement, and his workouts are far more intense than the four names you listed.

1) Maybe there is something to be said for having the same coach, and therefore long-term training plan, for your entire career. This is especially true when the coach is highly knowledgeable and has been there before as an athlete. Galen was brought along very slowly, especially in terms of mileage and intensity, but the cumulative effect of the training is significant. Salazar acknowledged that Rupp wasn't the most talented in the group (he said Webb was by far when he was with NOP).

2) People on here tend to throw out the "forever cycle of improvement" thing about Rupp a lot. Galen is one of my favorite runners, but take a look at when he ran his PRs. 1500m: 2014, Mile: 2013, 3000m: 2013, 5000m: 2012, 10000m: 2014. Sure, you can argue 2015 was an "off year", especially considering he is a new father (for those of you too young to know, that requires a significant lifestyle change). But it is far more likely that what we are seeing is Galen at his lifetime peak right now. He may knock another few seconds off his 5k or 10k, and he will likely be around this level for another 3-4 years, but this is probably about it.

readrun wrote:

Just read the RW interview with Hall. Oddly enough, the one thing that really stuck out to me was Hall's claim that only runs for 30 minutes at a time these days. That's exactly the amount Alberto Salazar runs today (although I can't find the interview where I read that).

The similarities between Hall and Salazar certainly don't stop there. In fact, their careers followed nearly the same success trajectory:

...

5) Leaving the sport in a tired, unhealthy state that prevents them from running longer than 30 minutes

Well, Salazar did win the Comrades Marathon (5:38:39 on the "up" course of about 56 miles) when he was almost 36 years old, about ten years after his last completed marathon.

The general topic -- that is, long-term and possibly permanent damage or exhaustion from years of intense training and racing -- is interesting, but I don't see quite the similarities between Salazar's and Hall's careers that you do. Both were stars in high school, but Salazar continued to improve significantly during college and was an international-caliber runner between the ages of about 20 and 25. He seemed to peak around the age of 23 to 24, started to struggle a bit over the next couple of years (Rotterdam 1983, Fukuoka 1983, Olympic trials 1984, and Olympic Games 1984), and seemed to just fall off a cliff after that, returning to serious competition some years later with a few intermittently good results at various distances (but not the marathon) in his early to mid-30s. Hall, on the other hand, took a while to develop into a top-class runner, with his first really world-class performance at any distance coming at the age of about 24, followed by a series of strong marathon performances for about five years during his mid- to late-20s, with well-documented struggles thereafter. Also, although both guys put in lots of miles, I think that their training and racing histories and schedules were very different, with Salazar staying pretty close to his track, cross-country, and shorter road-racing roots during his peak marathon years.

Anyway, I see lots of theories about these things, but I think that many people are too quick to draw conclusions about what's going on.

One other thing Hall and Salazar have in common is the thyroid connection. In fact, they have Dr Jeffrey Brown specifically in common.

Hall took synthetic T from Dr. Brown throughout his Mammoth career. When he left Mammoth, he stopped taking it and his career nosedived.

Wasn't Salazar's problem adrenal insufficiency? Hall doesn't mention this, but I wonder if he explored it as a possibility. Seems like a potential cause for Webb as well.

Seeing the Bigger Picture wrote:

People on here tend to throw out the "forever cycle of improvement" thing about Rupp a lot.

What gets thrown out a lot more is defense of Rupp. He is by far an outlier. His training was not slow and steady, it has always been intense. Believe what you want, but there is something (odd) Salazar is doing with Rupp that preventing injury while doing ridiculous workouts. Rupp will suffer long-term. Joints will break down; walking will become difficult. Chasing medals makes future health a secondary concern.

What a stupid post.

Les wrote:

Hall took synthetic T from Dr. Brown throughout his Mammoth career. When he left Mammoth, he stopped taking it and his career nosedived.

100% agree and this is what so many people overlook.

E.A wrote:

What a stupid post.

Hi, Eric "A Duck" Lindsey!

Some Thoughts-

Not everyone burns out. HG, Lagat, Meb, Yifter, Eammon Coglahn, Steve Scott, and John Walker all had successful careers that lasted into their late 30s and early 40s.

A lot do. Jim Ryun, Salazar, Alan Webb, Chris Solinsky and many more less celebrated runners were simply not able to continue at a high level past their mid to late 20s. Hall lasted a little longer but clearly dropped off a cliff after the 2012 Oly Trials.

So what's the difference? All of these guys trained incredibly hard and all of them seemed to truly love running. What can possibly cause super talented individuals to regress?

The most obvious explanation is chronic repetitive stress injuries. Webb dealt with a fairly serious achilles issue from highschool on. When the joints go, it is impossible to train consistently and world class performances are out of the question. Solinsky seems to have had been plagued by nagging injuries as well.

With that said, Lagat and HG both had achilles issues but eventually overcame them without serious complication. Ritz has been injury prone throughout his career but has always managed to bounce back.

With Hall and Salazar though, it doesn't seem like traditional "injuries" are the true culprit. Hall and others have described their situation as one where their body simply refuses to "respond" to training. Still, it seems hard to believe that overtraining or fatigue could continue to persist after athlete takes weeks and months off to allow body to recover.

One of the following might explain how overtraining could have permanent effects:

1.) Bone density /quality drops so low that body does not have reserve for initial adaptation phase.

2.) Scarring of the heart or valve damage that limits stroke volume

3.) A change in unconscious brain function that limits athletes ability to exert themselves.

Personally, I think that 1 and 2 can happen but I doubt that is the issue with Hall and Salazar in particular. If it were simply a "physical" issue, one would hope that high level athletes could obtain appropriate medical treatment or at least diagnosis.

I think 3 might happen more than most people realize. I read a story about a pro triathlete who won Kona Ironman in the 90s but endured an immense amount of pain in doing so. After that race he could not bear to put himself on the edge in either training or races. He eventually got over it after several years and continued successful career.

Salazar had some notoriously difficult marathons, Webb reportedly tortured himself with blistering interval workouts, and Hall may have gotten "addicted" to race pace training runs. (Watch the Ole Mammoth Lakes training you tube video)

At a certain point these guys unconscious governors may have kicked in and said enough is enough. As another poster has said, this is not an issue of being "flaky" or "afraid". Its just a situation where the mind shuts the body down short of its all out potential to protect against a perceived harm. And this effect may be drastically overprotective, preventing Hall from completing the most modest training plans.

Mind over Matter Dawg. Once the athletes see and experience the syndrome they are likely to have mental handicaps. The stress is easier to recover from if you are not world class. Everyday people deal with over training but if you are elite it hits on a whole new level.

"The most common symptom is fatigue. This may limit workouts and may be present at rest. The athlete may also become moody, easily irritated, have altered sleep patterns, become depressed, or lose the competitive desire and enthusiasm for the sport. Some will report decreased appetite and weight loss. Physical symptoms include persistent muscular soreness, increased frequency of viral illnesses, and increased incidence of injuries.

There have been several clinical studies done on athletes with the overtraining syndrome. Exercise physiologic, psychological, and biochemical laboratory testing have been done. Findings in these studies have shown decreased performance in exercise testing, decreased mood state, and, in some, increased cortisol levels -- the body's "stress" hormone. A decrease in testosterone, altered immune status, and an increase in muscular break down products have also been identified. Medically, the overtraining syndrome is classified as a neuro-endocrine disorder. The normal fine balance in the interaction between the autonomic nervous system and the hormonal system is disturbed and athletic "jet lag" results. The body now has a decreased ability to repair itself during rest. Heaping more workouts onto this unbalanced system only worsens the situation. Additional stress in the form of difficulties at work or personal life also contributes.

It appears that there are two forms of the syndrome. The sympathetic form is more common in sprint type sports and the parasympathetic form is more common in endurance sports. The results from various measurements taken during exercise physiologic testing differ between the two forms, but decreased overall performance and increased perceived fatigue are similar. In the parasympathetic form there may be a lower heart rate for a given workload. Athletes training with a heart rate monitor may notice that they cannot sustain the workout at their usual "set point." Fatigue takes over and prematurely terminates the workout. Regulation of glucose can become altered and the athlete may experience symptoms of hypoglycemia during exercise."

The other guy! wrote:

I read somewhere that one side effect of long term Thyroid medication is a drop in T-levels. Can anyone confirm this?

No. I have never seen that in any of the literature on thyroid replacement medications. If a person is actually diagnosed by blood test as hypothyroid, and then is prescribed thyroid replacement medication, and gets tested regularly and works with her/his physician to adjust the dosage to keep levels in the healthy range, then there aren't any of these dire side effects. A person may also be/have low-T -- and it may well be the case that a person's lifestyle or health situation that would lead to hypothyroidism may also lead to low-T, but thyroid replacement medication doesn't cause low-T. I would be really interested to see the medical literature that shows this -- I do not know of such (actual medical scientific) literature. I am sure somewhere someone on this great Internet of ours has asserted this, however. So I am sure it is possible to read this somewhere.

Hypothyroidism is a real medical condition, and it is miserable to live with, untreated. However, treating it is inexpensive and pretty straightforward, though proper treatment does require regular attention (e.g., regular blood tests). Doctors have been treating hypothyroidism in this way for around 100 years. There are some subtleties with particular tests -- beyond the basic TSH test -- and those can help resolve hard cases. And there are cases -- as with all medical conditions -- that don't respond to treatment. Any good physician who is treating this condition will in fact adjust the dosage to respond both to the blood tests, and to what the patient says about how she or he feels with a particular replacement dosage. That is pretty straightforward medical care -- nothing sinister about it, and no dire side effects waiting to strike.

On the other side of this, hyperthyroidism also compromises one's health, so manipulating one's thyroid into the 'over-active' range isn't going to make a person a better athlete -- and is clearly a case of bad medical care, if not outright malpractice.

But between these, the testing range of normal thyroid functioning is wide, and needs ongoing adjustment. All that is normal practice.

Someone else on here pointed this out, but Hall's descriptions of his condition sound like adrenal insufficiency.

Doctor Yes wrote:

If a person is actually diagnosed by blood test as hypothyroid, and then is prescribed thyroid replacement medication, and gets tested regularly and works with her/his physician to adjust the dosage to keep levels in the healthy range, then there aren't any of these dire side effects.

Except pushing levels to near maximum "allowed" levels --because one doctor thinks that is okay, while other doctors think it is not okay-- then there could be dire side effects. Different doctors have different opinions; finding the "right" one to max-out levels is not what a athlete should do.

Confused runner eh wrote:

Yes his marathon career was very good. BUT w taking breaks in training go work on his speed (5/10k) would had done him some good both mentally and physically. An elite marathoner should be competitive well into their late 30s IF and its a big IF they have trained smartly throughout the career. That is what I'm implying by "messed up".

think most posters on here are teens and college kids that just can't comprehend right now how fragile the human body is as you age , even for the most elite athletes. You have to be very cautious of the things you do... Or not do.

Amen, some of these younger kids will realize.... you just get tired. Hell, I never trained above 65mpw in high school or college. I swear the day I turned 30 I had aches and pains that I never knew existed. Pro Athletes don't want to be pro forever. These guys accomplished a lot. Enough is enough. No one would question a 30 something NFL player with a few Super Bowl rings retiring. Why question this?

I am sure he will be active in running through his wife, through his foundation and of course being a very elite hobby jogger.

I was watching a documentary about baboons once. They live in big troops with only one dominant male. The alpha was huge, powerful and quick, and got all the females. The other males were all stressed out, nervous and miserable.

A few months later they went back and the alpha had been deposed. Having sired a generation of offspring, he was now stiff, clumsy and weak, shunned by the troop and having trouble feeding himself. He had aged about 40 years it seemed. He was done.

That's how it is with some people. Aging is a biological process, not chronological. Some people go biologically balls-out, accelerating their development in the hope of reaching the top, but that same acceleration limits their time at the top.

Everyone in this thread is a complete idiot and has no idea what is going on.

The clues are:

"Adrenal fatigue" / chronic fatigue-like symptoms

exercise intolerance

Possibly related to exogenous hormone use

Lack of modulation in training

Clearly a physiological problem

and I'll leave it at that. Let's see if any sleuths can figure it out.