I find the latest polling sad:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/183791/support-nontraditional-candidates-varies-religion.aspx
More support for a gay or Muslim candidate than an atheist candidate?
I find the latest polling sad:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/183791/support-nontraditional-candidates-varies-religion.aspx
More support for a gay or Muslim candidate than an atheist candidate?
1. Of course I know that we don't know his exact words. But the meaning of his teachings has been very well preserved and holds up well across scrutiny and multiple sources. Whether he said "whoever is with us is for us" or "whoever is against us is not with us" matters little; the meaning is the same. FWIW, 30 years seems like a long time...but that is a fraction of the elapsed time for other historical figures, such as Alexander the Great. We consider that info to be reliable, so if we hold the two up to equal scrutiny, we should hold Jesus' teachings to be reliable too.
2. Not gonna lie, I struggled with this one, too, when I realized how the Canon arose. For some reason, I was ok with humans being divinely inspired to WRITE scripture, but I had a hard time being ok with humans being divinely inspired to decide what actually IS scripture. Then, I looked at the scripture in question. 95% of what is in the Bible was agreed upon almost immediately. These all showed the same clear picture of who and what Jesus taught and claimed to be. Similarly, the ancient writings that were excluded were kept out because there were outlandish, out of character, and unsupported events depicted and claims made. Probably the only real debate was over Revelations, which is in a whole different category, anyway, because it is prophecy, not history. Anyone who has researched the formation of Canon should feel very confident that it was collected with the same care with which it was written.
3. Agreed. Similarly, I wonder why we put so much faith in our Founding Fathers. I mean, they wore powdered wigs and over coats in an un-air-conditioned courthouse in June and July. How smart could they have been? :-) But, at a certain, point, personal experience and faith have to come into play. I wish you all the best in your personal spiritual journey, and have sincerely enjoyed the discussion.
Great point.
Keep in mind, it is only a contradiction if God is FINITE. In an infinite God, there is room for omnipotence and omniscience....free will and total sovereignty... perfect justice and benevolence... We limit Him because we are, ourselves, limited, and it is all we understand :-)
Is there some Alexander the Great religion I am unaware of? Did he do anything that impacts people today?
I mean no offense here, but that's nonsensical. If something is logically inconsistent, it's false. We don't get to carve out exceptions and whisk away the rules that govern reality because they don't fit religious narratives (It doesn't make sense, so therefore God). The argument is backwards. Reason dictates that evidence and logic lead you to a conclusion. You're wanting to start with "God exists" and then build the argument up around it; it's coming up with the conclusion first and then shoring up the argument.
Let's say God exists, just for argument's sake. He cannot be both omnipotent and omniscient, as I demonstrated. Again, prayer becomes useless unless it is for the person doing the praying. Secondly, by placing God in this special, exempt category you've made it impossible to say or know anything about him. This is problematic because then anything that is contradictory to logic and evidence can just be "piled on."
For example: "God is outside of time and space." "It's God's will. We don't have to understand it." "Because God wanted it that way." It's a dangerous way to think, and a dangerous thing to teach children especially; it affects how they look at the world. It essentially teaches them that unreality can be reality and that right action can be whispered into your head from somewhere out in the ether.
I've enjoyed the back and forth. These conversations are enjoyable when they stay civil :)
FWIW, I agree that arguments like "because God wanted it that way" can be dangerous...unless we remember that God is the author of love and truth, and do not try to distort scripture and bend it for OUR purposes (American slavery and the Crusades come to mind).
I DO think it is important to remember that God is INFINITE (and we may be at the "agree to disagree" point, lol). With an infinite God, there is room for infinite attributes...even ones that may seem contradictory from our perspective...
RANDOM QUESTION (with a purpose): Have you ever read Flatland?
Jeff on a Starship wrote:
Is there some Alexander the Great religion I am unaware of? Did he do anything that impacts people today?
The question was about historical reliability :-)
To answer your question, no, none that I am aware of, Illuminati notwithstanding...
thejeff wrote:
FWIW, I agree that arguments like "because God wanted it that way" can be dangerous...unless we remember that God is the author of love and truth, and do not try to distort scripture and bend it for OUR purposes (American slavery and the Crusades come to mind).
I DO think it is important to remember that God is INFINITE (and we may be at the "agree to disagree" point, lol). With an infinite God, there is room for infinite attributes...even ones that may seem contradictory from our perspective...
You're doing exactly what Stagger Lee just pointed out and suggested you shouldn't do when you already.
We can't "remember that God is the author of love and truth" .... your trying to make your case by stating your case.
Similarly with the whole "God is INFINITE" .. in a discussion over the reality of god you try to prove it by describing your god.
On the subject
“In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.â€
Sam Harris, Letter to a Christian Nation.
Lastly .. no one need bend scripture to support slavery. Slavery is clearly condoned in the text. If you suggest otherwise, you're simply ignoring what your book says. In other words, you're bending your scripture for YOUR purposes.
imagine that.
... I really shouldn't have checked back in on this thread ...
Dude... the passages on slavery were written to CHRISTIAN SLAVES OF PAGAN ROMANS. If you want to have intelligent banter, I am all for it. But just because you say the WNBA is entertaining doesn't make it so.
Not always. Onesimus was a slave that Paul converted to Christianity and then sent back to his Christian owner.
thejeff wrote:
Jeff on a Starship wrote:Is there some Alexander the Great religion I am unaware of? Did he do anything that impacts people today?
The question was about historical reliability :-)
To answer your question, no, none that I am aware of, Illuminati notwithstanding...
How do you know it's reliable if it doesn't actually mean anything to you? Have you checked out all the Alexander files?
thejeff wrote:
Dude... the passages on slavery were written to CHRISTIAN SLAVES OF PAGAN ROMANS. If you want to have intelligent banter, I am all for it. But just because you say the WNBA is entertaining doesn't make it so.
Wrong.
.. but does it really matter to your god what color someone is when they're bought and sold?
There is obviously an Intelligence at work in the universe that gave birth to stars, planets and the physical laws governing the operation of the same. And on at least one planet that intelligence gave birth to life itself including one species that can even ponder its own existence and of the universe itself. I am ok with calling that Intelligence God. I am not arguing for the existence of Yahweh or Allah or any of the innumerable personal Gods of traditional organized religions that require a leap of faith. But it seems to me be quite illogical to deny that this Intelligence exists though I am unsure as to what it's objective is or if it has an objective at all.
DontGetAtheism wrote:
There is obviously an Intelligence at work in the universe that gave birth to stars, planets and the physical laws governing the operation of the same. And on at least one planet that intelligence gave birth to life itself including one species that can even ponder its own existence and of the universe itself. I am ok with calling that Intelligence God. I am not arguing for the existence of Yahweh or Allah or any of the innumerable personal Gods of traditional organized religions that require a leap of faith. But it seems to me be quite illogical to deny that this Intelligence exists though I am unsure as to what it's objective is or if it has an objective at all.
If you're OK with God then you're OK with Yahweh and Allah. Same guy! True story.
wtfunny wrote:
thejeff wrote:Dude... the passages on slavery were written to CHRISTIAN SLAVES OF PAGAN ROMANS. If you want to have intelligent banter, I am all for it. But just because you say the WNBA is entertaining doesn't make it so.
Wrong.
.. but does it really matter to your god what color someone is when they're bought and sold?
Are you serious?
I'm not sure it's quite so obviously "an intelligence" giving birth to anything at all. Any more than when it rains, that water comes from clouds .. which are made of water, which comes to the atmosphere via evaporation, from the water table, which comes the rain, etc, etc. i didn't give birth to my toes, they simple are a part of me.
It seems, to me, far more illogical, to call what you're describing 'god,' given how completely meaningless that term has become, than it is to deny the existence of a 'god'. Consciousness and intelligence do exist, I don't think many folks would argue (very well) otherwise. But that =/= "god".
thejeff wrote:
Are you serious?
Are you? The god in your bible references and supports slavery long before "christians" were even a thing, and long before Romans ever bought or sold any one.
DontGetAtheism wrote:
There is obviously an Intelligence at work in the universe that gave birth to stars, planets and the physical laws governing the operation of the same.
No, there really isn't.
I've never heard of Flatland. Link? I want to make sure it's the right one.
http://www.southwestern.edu/academics/bwp/pdf/2006bwp-buchele.pdfStagger Lee wrote:
I've never heard of Flatland. Link? I want to make sure it's the right one.
It is a story... about Math, lol (Geometry, actually...the main character is a Square, quite literally, lol)
Anyway, it is a short and (I think) interesting read... but there is a moral to the story about the difficulty of comprehending dimensions beyond our own... enjoy :-)
Colin Sahlman runs 1:45 and Nico Young runs 1:47 in the 800m tonight at the Desert Heat Classic
Molly Seidel Fails To Debut As An Ultra Runner After Running A Road Marathon The Week Before
Megan Keith (14:43) DESTROYS Parker Valby's 5000 PB in Shanghai
Hallowed sub-16 barrier finally falls - 3 teams led by Villanova's 15:51.91 do it at Penn Relays!!!
Need female opinions: I’m dating a woman that is very sexual with me in public. Any tips/insight?