Genetics vs Hard Training? Whats your stance

Genetics is by far the most important factor in determining one's potential in running. It's much, much less than 1% of the population who can run sub-4 with any type of amount of training. How many of the top 100 kids at your XC state meet will ever even go sub-4? Keep in mind that they are all in the top 1% of the general population.

Newly Improved wrote:

Genetics allow you to get in shape FAST. However there are many examples of people who trained for years and got way more out of their potential than others.

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Nope, the guys that are genetic freaks aren't "actually 'in shape" when they run fast right away. That's just their natural untrained state.

Name some guys that went from nothing to elite through hard work.

This debate is destined to go in circles because everybody is arguing a different question. I just want to say some maybe obvious points.

It is a universal tendency to think that people faster than you are more talented while people slower than you don't work as hard. This is normal because almost everyone starts out slow, then through years and years of hard work reaches some level, then fails to achieve a higher level.

So when you look at someone slower than you, you compare to yourself at some point in time, and instinctively assume that since harder training helped you improve, it will help them. When you look at someone much faster than you, you see a level that you could not achieve no matter how hard or smart you trained, hence they must be more talented.

This issue is worse because we tend to surround ourselves with people of similar level, so we get to thinking/assuming that our own level is "normal" and others are underworking or overtalented.

Another source of bias is that the people who work hardest tend to be the most talented, or vice versa, because these are the ones who experience the most success and go on to devote more of their lives to running. This isn't universal, but it's common.

The final obvious problem is that you can always argue that someone failed not due to lack of talent, but because they didn't get the "right" training or train "hard enough". This is compounded because there are many types of talent, including durability and ability to handle hard training. So did they get injured due to bad training or bad genetics?

Bottom line: if you listen to a 5:30 miler arguing that anyone can run under 6 minutes given the right training, or to a 4:30 miler arguing that anyone can get under 5 minutes given the right training, the arguments sound pretty much the same. Why? Because they're based on pretty much the same life experiences, just shifted up a minute.

It's the guys saying anybody can be elite who are the problem.

Do you believe in evolution? The theory assumes that all of an organism's abilities, both physical and mental, are genetically determined or at least delimited.

Asdfghjkl wrote:

Do you believe in evolution? The theory assumes that all of an organism's abilities, both physical and mental, are genetically determined or at least delimited.

Yes I do, why?

d1 exp wrote:

The final obvious problem is that you can always argue that someone failed not due to lack of talent, but because they didn't get the "right" training or train "hard enough". This is compounded because there are many types of talent, including durability and ability to handle hard training. So did they get injured due to bad training or bad genetics?

There is no such thing as "genetically injury prone." It is all a matter of motivation and commitment. If you don't run high volume, that means you are not dedicated enough.

The Way We Were wrote:

d1 exp wrote:

The final obvious problem is that you can always argue that someone failed not due to lack of talent, but because they didn't get the "right" training or train "hard enough". This is compounded because there are many types of talent, including durability and ability to handle hard training. So did they get injured due to bad training or bad genetics?

There is no such thing as "genetically injury prone." It is all a matter of motivation and commitment. If you don't run high volume, that means you are not dedicated enough.

What if you have Ostrich foot?

potential energy wrote:

Newly Improved wrote:

Genetics allow you to get in shape FAST. However there are many examples of people who trained for years and got way more out of their potential than others.

.

Nope, the guys that are genetic freaks aren't "actually 'in shape" when they run fast right away. That's just their natural untrained state.

Name some guys that went from nothing to elite through hard work.

Did you even read what I said? I never said hard work could make someone elite, in fact I said the opposite:

"Genetic potential matters, but only at the HIGHEST elite levels"

It does matter. Your idea of genetic potential is obviously much different than mine. I'm talking about guys that were decent runner in college that went on the run 2:15-2:25 for a marathon. How can you argue that this isn't where hard work comes into play? Actually, on the high side, there have been average or below high school runners run 2:25 or under in the marathon.

Elite? Not hardly

Impressive? Definitely

Now, this all comes back to my 10% argument I referenced. What's 10% of 2:25? 14.5 minutes coinciding with a 2:10-2:11 finish. My argument was most people can probably train themselves to be within about 10% of what would be considered elite in most athletics, after that genetics rears it's ugly head.

Hard work comes in to play for everyone that sticks to it and the genetic spread in performance remains.

Genetics rears its head for everyone.

potential energy wrote:

The Way We Were wrote:

There is no such thing as "genetically injury prone." It is all a matter of motivation and commitment. If you don't run high volume, that means you are not dedicated enough.

What if you have Ostrich foot?

How many people with Ostrich foot have ever aspired to become a serious runner? No aspiration means no commitment or dedication.

The Way We Were wrote:

potential energy wrote:

What if you have Ostrich foot?

How many people with Ostrich foot have ever aspired to become a serious runner? No aspiration means no commitment or dedication.

Hard to aspire when you can barely walk.