Why do I suck at the marathon?

Do you eat before the race?

It sounds like your energy level depletes. I had that very issue and then read that many trained elite marathoners eat a bagel with peanut butter, or plain, or something around 4 hours before the race. Even if that means getting up around 3:30, eating and going back to bed.

It certainly made a difference for me

Yeah before the 3:01 and 2:56 I had peanut butter on toast with a banana. Before the 3:12 I had a bowl of Cheerios with a banana.

Indeed it's odd that the great Tadese has never run a decent marathon.

Some runners are great up to the half, but not beyond. Look at the marathon debuts of Farah and Bekele. Farah, average for such a stud. Bekele, pretty impressive.

Also, Australian great Ron Clarke held world records from 2 miles through 20,000 meters, but tanked in the marathon.

This is a great thread. I'm a former miler who has been a 5K/10K guy post college. Let's face it, it's fun running fast!

This year I've done my first two half marathons and I enjoy the distance. Now, my town of Oaxaca, Mexico has announced it's inaugural marathon on Feb. 28th.

Maybe I'll run it, my first marathon at age 58! It's daunting, Oaxaca is a 5000 feet. I increased my mileage from 30 to 36 last week, but I'm sitting on the fence.

I gotta say, reading the thread does not make me salivate to try the marathon!

You are training for the first 20 miles and neglecting the last 10K.

Read this:

http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

Not that you have to train like he says, just a good explanation.

Couple of points.

1. Do 3 day training blocks of long intervals at threshold, 90 minute run, then short intervals.

2. Do a run once a week at current marathon effort for about 50-60 minutes.

3. Throw in a Long workout, 90 minutes @ 90% marathon effort.

4. Don't taper for long runs! Run on tired legs.

I trained the Lydiard way and did two hours a day. Follow the Lydiard base program and then on days when you do an hour of fartlek, then jog or do some easy running drills for recovery. On an hour and a half day, do a half hour recovery jog. On a two hour plus run day, you can take a walk or easy bike or swim or crawl around the house for recovery.

Normal week was three runs at an hour and a half. A two hour plus run. Three one hour runs where it was varied. Run cross country runs while training as much as possible. Hills are good too.

I was running 12:02 for two miles for one year in HS and then quit running to ride bikes. Came back to running married with only two hours a day for training and no money. My first marathon after two years of hundred mile weeks was 2:48. Marathon PR went to 2:32, 10K 32:30, 5K 15:30.

Anyone not putting in two hours a day probably won't find out how good they can be. Run by time and as you get fitter your mileage will increase. How bad do you want to be good?

bump

+1 excellent post.

consistencyofmileage wrote:

But how many weeks did you do 70 to 80 mpw? Was that peak mileage, or your average for the training cycle?

Well he did say he went out at 2:45 pace. So basically blew up which not the same amining for sub 3 and failing

It's horses for courses anyway Not everyone has the same ability at all distances

UK athletics coach...it's not a matter of ability as we can see his "ability" and how it should transfer up to a 2:45ish marathon.

Everyone is built different. To hear one guy say I did this and it worked is one of the main reasons so many people fail.

To be a good coach you HAVE to be able to learn about each runner and their strengths and weaknesses. The fact is we all have some differing ratio of slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibers and it relates DIRECTLY to how we perform. (and how we should train) As Hadd once said, "if we all had the same muscle fiber makeup, then sprinters and marathon runners would all run the same speed"

Another of my favorite Hadd quotes:

"it is not possible to have BOTH the LT of a marathon runner AND the anaerobic ability of an M-D runner simultaneously. It'd be like trying to be short AND tall at the same time."

The OP here has trained his AnT level very well and moved it very far away from his AeT level because most of his training is too fast (always improving AnT). He needs to slow down and run a ton of mileage slower than 2.0 mmol until be gets his AeT tucked up nicely under his AnT. Only then will he be almost ready to rock the marathon.

This is the basis of Lydiard...Hadd just added the science behind his methods.

Haddite, I posted earlier that most of my mileage was around 8 min pace or slower, and many people here said that they were surprised I ran my mileage that slowly. Are you suggesting that 8 min pace might actually be too fast? I did do some runs at 8:45 to 9 min pace but not very many as that pace was ridiculously slow.

how do they do it? wrote:

Haddite, I posted earlier that most of my mileage was around 8 min pace or slower, and many people here said that they were surprised I ran my mileage that slowly. Are you suggesting that 8 min pace might actually be too fast? I did do some runs at 8:45 to 9 min pace but not very many as that pace was ridiculously slow.

Forgot to change my name back from another thread lol. This is the OP though.

Not really. Haddite is saying that you need to run at the right pace, 8 minute mileing is slow for you. 6.30 - 7 would be better, starting at the slower pace.

What is your natural speed? Your sprint times when you were younger? That will tell you your fast twitch/slow twitch ratio to some degree.

Like I said, I would get an heart rate monitor...I know, I know, most people claim real runners don't use them (Malmo) but they actually do. If you know how to use one they are invaluable.

Ideally I would prefer to lactate test you but for a coach like me that does online coaching, it is not possible so we use the HRM in place of lactate readings. It gives you almost the same information.

You race a marathon at 2.0-2.5 mmol (millimoles of lactate per liter of blood). That has been established for years in all the science books. Your body does not have enough fuel to last the entire marathon if you try to run it at a pace faster than that (say 3.0 mmol). If you have ever seen a lactate curve this would help you to visualize what's going on. This 2.0 level is about what is considered your Aerobic Threshold (AeT).

When you stand on the line you will have wanted to improve your AeT as much as possible. You do this BEFORE you start working on Anaerobic stuff. This is the long slow base miles of Lydiard and the Phase I of Hadd. In order to improve your AeT you must start with paces that are SLOWER than your current AeT level.

Do you know what that is? Probably not...

If you could get lactate tested you would or if you knew your maxHR you would. I like to move my runners thru a phase of AeT work and then race a half marathon. They are always blown away when they race the half at a faster pace (ave/mile) then we EVER ran in training! And we haven't worked on speed yet!

Likewise, you can stay in AeT too long and stagnate. I think we all know a few runners who run tons of mileage and never improve their marathon. They have a different problem than you do.

Another quick quote by Hadd with regards to heart rate monitors..

"Give me a pencil and I'll draw you a few quick stick figures. Give that same pencil to DaVinci and you'll get the study drawings for The Last Supper. You tell me, is it the user or the tool...?"

Forget what you THINK you know about marathon training. Get Advanced Marathoning by Pftizinger and Douglas, a heart rate monitor, and follow a training program in the book.

what % of maxHR do you train at to work AeT?

It always amazes me how some people never answer questions about their own post.

Is 8min/mile too slow for the OP or not? I thought that was a simple enough question. But I guess it is not.

I did answer the question. He needs to run slower than his 2.0 mmol level.

Is 8 minutes a mile below his 2.0 level. I don't know?

Which is why I suggest getting the HRM, doing a max test and start by running at 70% of max. My guess is the OP does do some running at slower than 2.0 but he offsets it by running way too many of his runs OVER.

With the strength of his Anaerobic system, running 6:30 pace is a piece of cake yet it is TOO fast for him (probably 3.0 mmol). Chances are he's powering that pace with his Anaerobic system (and glycogen) and because he never runs a full marathon in training he is surprised to learn that he cannot hold 6:30 pace without running out of fuel.

Here's another Hadd quote:

"To me, the prime requirement for marathon success is (what we might term) "comfort" at race pace.

If your lactate at M-pace is too high, which makes you uneconomical (as regards to fuel), you will crash. How early and how hard you crash depends on how bad your lactate is at M-pace.

Train so that M-lactate is low enough and you will not crash (assuming you carbo load properly).

It has nothing to do with how many miles you have run, or how long your long run has been, but how "comfortable" (in lactate/economy terms) you are at M-pace. Fix that and you're made in the shade."

At the end of the day, if you do all of the right things and still suck, it may not be for you. I spent 3 months totally focusing on one race and the best I could do was 2:57. With my job and family, I could not devote anymore time than did. There are guys I could beat at any other distance, including the half, but I could not beat them in a marathon. Except for once when I went out really slow, my body would break down the last couple of miles and there was nothing I could do about that. But, like I said in a previous post, I continued to run marathons with the goal being a hard effort and enjoying the experience. Also, the result of marathon training (the amount my body could take) I ran some good times at other distances. Most of my 5k/10K PRs came a couple weeks before or after a marathon. Good Luck