Why do I suck at the marathon?

thegripper wrote:

For the 3:01 and 2:56 a few years ago, I was doing 70-80 a week for about 2 years leading up to that. Those were my junior and senior years of college, so 3k to 10k type training. I ran those marathons in the fall and winter after I graduated college, so I only started doing marathon specific training in the summer and fall leading up to the 3:01 and 2:56.

For the recent 3:12, I got up to 70 about 3 months before the marathon, peaking at 80 and usually hitting low 70s.

Hrm... that is kind of puzzling. I was fully expecting to say you peaked at 70-80 for 2 weeks and had spent the rest of the cycle at 40. What is your easy pace? And what kind of periodization were you using to point for your marathons? I am thinking #1 you run your easy runs too hard #2 you are not sharpening your training for the marathon.

For the sake of comparison, I typically started my marathon cycles with a base of 50-60 mpw, hit the majority of it in 70-80 range, and peaked at 80-100, with cycles lasting about 14 weeks. I had PRs at the time of 16:40, 35:30, and 1:18 and was between 35 and 40 years old at the time. This resulted in 2:43, 2:44, 2:45, 2:48, and 2:49, not in that order.

This is a great thread. I feel your pain, OP. I do not have much experience with the marathon (have run only one), but I know exactly how you feel. My drop off in the marathon is more minimal than yours, but any type of underachieving is tough to accept. The thing is: people who put in the effort want to see results. You have received some good advice here, but your problem could involve more than one issue. Overall, I think this type of thing is perplexing. Run more? Run less? Run faster? Run slower? Get more rest? Who knows? I would love to have the answer.

This thread screams sugar burner. It sounds like you are one of the most fuel inefficient people out there. Higher fat diet and lay off the processed carbohydrate "foods." You should be able to break 3 hours w/ just your talent alone. You might want to get your blood glucose checked to make sure you're not diabetic.

My story is similar, albeit my shorter distance marks were slower than yours; 16:38/1:18 off of 35-45 mpw and my first couple of marathons were in the 3 teens. My body would simply fail me the last couple of miles. Although I am convinced I am not built for the marathon, I did manage to eventually run 2:57. I ran a 3:02 (big PR) after running another marathon 3 weeks earlier and ran with a friend whose goal was to run 3:05. In that marathon I ran the first couple miles so slow that it felt like a recovery run and I ended up negative splitting and literally sprinting to the finish line. I ran my 2:57 the following spring after upping my long runs from 15 to 20, my mileage from 35 to 45, going out slower and drinking early in the race even when I wasn't thirsty. 2:57 still remains my PR; I discovered I get injured every time I went over 50 mpw, which is required to run a fast marathon. Btw, I gave up running a fast marathon and started taking my family to marathons, traveling to some nice places and just enjoying the marathon experience.

thegripper wrote:

Thanks for the input. I did some midweek workouts of 8-10 at marathon effort (6:35 pace was fairly comfortable), but never went more than 10 midweek. I did some progression type long runs (20 miles, last 10 at 6:35-6:40 pace) but no 23-24 milers. So maybe I just need to go longer on my long runs, both midweek and weekend. I usually never ran faster than 8 minute pace for regular mileage so I don't think I was going to hard on recovery days.

You probably don't need any more than 3 - 23 milers per each cycle.

You DO need mid week long runs of around 15-17 miles. Back off on the day after a little bit and you really don't have to increase your mileage that much. A good 10 miler the day before a 15-17 miler will help

OP - everything you've said so far leads me to believe that you just need to try eating gels during your long runs and races. the things people said earlier are pretty much off course. a guy running 70-80 mpw doesnt need to run more to run a 2:40s marathon. you don't need to ever run 23 miles in training, your 18-20s are totally fine. you just need to fix your nutrition. forget sports drinks, just try water plus gels and see what happens. follow the instructions on the gel packets to start, and deviate if it doesn't work out. personally, i eat the first gel after an hour, then eat more every 2-3 miles

You are missing the point.

Miles at marathon pace don't make a difference.

You need to train for the distance not the pace, you are fast enough, your half pace proves this. The problem with the marathon training in the US is that guys are trying to run marathon pace way too much. Look at the times below as an example. We are getting slower yet doing more work at marathon pace than ever before. In the 80's almost no training was done at marathon pace. The recipe was this: Lots of miles, long run, medium long run, one long interval session like 5-6 x mile at 10k pace. Frequent racing at all distances from 10k to half marathon.

NYC Marathon Results:

47 guys under 2:20 in 1982. Only 13 guys under 2:20 in 2015.

93 guys under 2:25 in 1982. Only 19 guys under 2:25 in 2015.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6846169&page=1#ixzz3riT280IL

Make sure you're really loading up on carbs 2-3 days before the marathon.

Exactly. Exactly.

If you look at the 80s and the marathon times, and then read LRC, nearly EVERYONE sucks at the marathon today.

The brojos keep saying how training sucked in the 90s, but has it really improved for the enthusiast runner at the marathon?

No, most runners on here are still trying to break 3:00 and under 2:30 is unheard of except for full time sub-elites.

We must be doing something wrong when runners that should be running 2:15 are pulling 2:45s.

31 minute 10k guys getting 2:40s and happy with that?

35 minute 10k people hoping for 2:50s...

if your long runs are 20 miles you don't really need to run much further than that in my opinion. don't go crazy.

and yes, try taking in more carbs during the marathon (gels and more gatorade etc.)

make sure to practice taking in those carbs on your long runs so that you don't end up with an upset stomach during the race

I don't think training has improved for even the very top level of US Marathoners. 2:10 - 2:14 is still considered elite in this country and Americans were running those times as far back as 1969.

2:13:28 Kenny Moore, Lowell, OR Fukuoka, JPN December 7, 1969

2:11:12 Eamon O’Reilly, Washington, DC Boston, MA April 20, 1970

2:10:30 Frank Shorter, Ranchos de Taos, NM Fukuoka, JPN December 3, 1972

2:09:55 Bill Rodgers, Melrose, MA Boston, MA April 21, 1975

2:09:27 Bill Rodgers, Melrose, MA Boston, MA April 16, 1979

energy reserves.

are always the issue in the marathon.

in any one race the majority of the field does not approach their PB especially at championships.

instead of breaking your limbs do cross training for a while. bike swim pool running and circuit training. go 3 hours at a time with a moderate effort that is very doable. you can push the last hour a bit if inspired.

you want to do 2 big sessions per week plus on the off days one hour of mixed running and something else aerobic.

after 6 months switch to running full time.

one hour easy runs. two workouts mile intervals at 6 minutes per mile 2 minute recovery is good. eight of them ish.

10 km . rest. another 5 km at under race pace. make it a strong effort but not exhaustive.

long run can be 2 hours plus 45 minutes on the bike in the pool.

if you feel tired, take a day off.

For the OP:

Your two years off from running (or running relatively low mileage at the time probably didn't help).

Might want to look at nutrition (don't eat more fat!...just don't eat a bunch of refined sugars all the time). Eat more veggies and fruit, etc.

But do take gels during a marathon. You've already experienced some classic bonks (i.e. just after 20-miles you hit the wall...hard).

The burning fat as fuel and glycogen sparing ability comes with Long Runs in the 20-22 mile range. Nothing really crazy, but not a walk in the park in terms of intensity/muscle damage. These are really key and you want at least a few months were you are doing some weekend Long Runs in the 18-22 mileage range.

Be sure to throw down some miles close to marathon pace (if not some faster) during the second half of a lot of your Long Runs...ie. do a Fartlek or close the last 4-5 miles hard like a Tempo Run after starting at a pretty steady pace maybe only 30sec/mile slower than Marathon race pace.

Other than that, consistent high mileage training (easy day paces about 1-2min/slower than goal marathon pace) so you can recover from these Long runs and not get hurt.

Another Key: Lactate THreshold/Tempo Run workouts. After a good base of easy miles this is your next most important quality workout. 10km race pace + about 10-15sec per mile OR about 15sec per mile faster than goal marathon pace OR about 85% of max HR. Do 2 mile repeats, and 3 miles repeats with a short 5-6min rest between. (i.e. 4 x 2-miles). Also do 6-8 mile Tempo/Uptempo Runs that start around Marathon goal pace and then close down the second half 5-10sec/mile faster. This will build strength and stamina and make you more efficient at slightly faster than marathon race pace.

In the final 4-5 weeks before the race you can throw in a few traditional "Vo2max" type of workouts but they don't have to be much faster than 10km race pace...something like 4 x 1 mile or 8 x 1000m with 2-3min rest. Mainly for leg turnover and to get your HR up over the lactate threshold. Speed isn't your problem for the marathon so these really won't be as important at the key Long Run workouts, The Tempo intervals, and consistent high mileage.

Good luck!

I'd have to say nutrition.

I'm a ~18min 5K/~1:20 Half guy and have comparable times.

I do have a relatively high fat low carb diet during training.

4 days before marathon I switch to high carb.

A gel half hour before race.

I'll carry a handheld water bottle for refilling Gatorade. A ShotBlok every ten minutes, and a gel every hour.

May sound uncool and like overkill - but works for me. There's also a discipline component to fueling so regularly.

valid points.

I want to add that I feel like 70 - 80 miles isn't that much when you run 18 - 20 miles as a long run and one or two longer workouts in-week (13 - 15 miles). That leaves you with like 5 - 8ish miles on the other easy days and they really should be more like 9+. I feel like easy runs below 15k/10 miles do not help you much for a marathon when you're not doubling. 9 - 12 miles or so at a good but still easy clip (MP + 20 - 25 %) seems to be a better spot.

Wow, a response from Sage Canaday, not bad for my first time posting on letsrun!

I've gotten a lot of comments about nutrition and fueling, which is probably the area I know least about. My diet is pretty healthy overall (I think): fruits and veggies everyday, lots of meals with chicken, rice, beans.

Sounds like I definitely need to try gels. As far as "carbo loading", I ate a bunch of pasta and potatoes during the 3 days before the marathon, as well as just staying hydrated. Im sure there are better ways to go about it, so I'm open to suggestions on what to eat in the days leading up to the race.

Patience son.

My marathon progression has gone 2:58, 2:47, 2:39 within a 12 month period without majorly changing my training. I am in a similar situation to you, where my shorter distance times failed to translate upwards (32:50/73:35).

For me all that helped was not giving up and getting my gel intake dialed in to what works for me. I think lot's of people get discouraged when they don't get the times they expect, but remember it might take 2-3 real efforts before you even finish without bonking.

It can take a long time for all that Marathon specific training to kick in, for me I didn't really feel like all the work I had been doing was starting to pay off until my last attempt. Hoping to break 2:35 next year, just going to keep doing more of the same, around 80mpw with some decent MP work.

Good luck!

I agree; you should follow the Advanced Marathon Training training principles from Pete P. I found the book to be informative, interesting, and not at all gimicky. If anything, I didn't change my training a whole lot but simply used Pfitizinger's advice. I think the biggest thing to draw from the book is that you don't necessarily need to run X amount of miles or 100 miles or whatever and that you don't need to do that much work at MP. Rather (if I recall correctly) he had recommended one Vo2 max type workout each week (I most commonly chose 3 by 1 mile when I was on my own, but I would workout with my xc team one or twice a week and do a variety of partial tempos/short intervals/hills mostly on grass.) I almost never did any tempos of any kind, but occasionally on long runs would run at a fast (but modest) clip towards the end. I never ran more than 21 miles though in training--this was my senior year of XC but I geared most of my training towards the marathon and trained through almost all the xc races that year. Even so, between xc races (mostly 8k) and two workouts a week and a long run the most important adage I followed was doing a good amount of base mileage at around 7:30 pace (rough estimate; never mapped or GPS on any runs). I wavered around 70 miles a week, but in the summer I had done 80 to 90.

Sorry, that got long. My best realeast least bullshittiest advice would be to 1) run hilly trails, 2) avoid running an overdistance run (worst idea I've seen so far on this thread) and 3) plan out a solid taper from 3 to 4 weeks out.

Don't think my qoute button is working!J!OIJ!

But credit is due to the sugar-burner accuser.

If you specifically are falling apart at 20 miles then yeah, your body's fuel system could be to blame. Part of it is figuring out what to eat before the marathon, then during the marathon is another part of the figure, but (before going on another rant) I think it's important to tell us (or just yourself) what kind of runner you are. I mean, I could always go for runs on a empty stomach and hold up fine (whereas, almost anything I eat before runs will give me a gut punch at some point). I'm kind of on the heavy side (5' 4 and 140 lbs) but I feel pretty comfortable at longer distances. Relevant cause my PRS are 16:04, 1:15 for the half. Not too different than yours but my marathon time is considerably faster. Before I ever broke 2:50 though I ran a race in 3:20. I actually ran off course for about a mile before the race director found me (by car) but I went out way too fast, 1:18 for the half, and died really bad by mile 21 and got caught my a old ultra-type guy. He was adamant that I park myself at the aid station and eat oreos and gummy bears. I got 2nd and was pretty pleased since I was doing about 15 miles a week at the time and had largely taken the month of Dec. off.