Nick Willis calls TnF a 'complete joke'.

Totally agree with almost everything written by TLW.

How anyone cannot see the huge anomaly that was the 90's in the progression of middle and distance world records, is beyond me. It was so obvious. And it wasn't just the athletes from 2 countries, as someone suggested, it was happening all over.

Cacho and Baala for a start were never genuine 3:28 runners, and Silva's last lap in Athens was so far fetched it was comical.

People talk about some athletes getting close in the last few years to the 1500 and 5000m WRs. Well, yes a few have, if you accept that the IAAF's home track isn't somehow tuned for super fast times in the middle distances, but the irony seems to be lost on those who cannot see that the athletes getting close are from those same countries that are being criticised as we speak for not having proper testing in place.

I hope Kiprop is clean, but he is Kenyan, certainly struggled around the 3:30 mark for many years, and his agent is Rosa. While that isn't evidence of some kind of 'support' in itself, it certainly raises some questions. If he were Russian, then I think everyone on here would be dismissing him without a second's thought. Perhaps we should wait and see what other 'evidence' relating to Kenyan athletics emerges in the 2nd WADA report.

What we all know already, however, is that Kenyan athletes aren't tested out of competition or out of season in the same way that many European countries are. We also have to question now, in light of last week's revelations, that if Russia was that corrupt and Diack was complicit in covering it up, what could have been going on in a fellow African country like Kenya?

And how often are Ethiopians tested by their national federation out of season? It's hard to imagine that if Kenya has pleaded poverty as an excuse for not having to adhere to stringent testing and protocols that others have undergone, that Ethiopia would not fall in to the same special measures category.

Countries that don't have the resources for testing, like Ethiopia, have their athletes' out of competition tests performed by international testers.

The "start of the EPO era" moves around because no one is going admit to taking it so there was never an equivalent to baseball's Opening Day when someone throws out the first hypodermic needle. The earliest stories I heard of Americans taking EPO go back to 1982 or'83 so it's entirely possible that both Old Centrowitz's and Nenow's records were EPO induced. Also, in those years blood doping was still legal so it's still quite possible that US runners afterwards, "aided" or unaided, were chasing times that were aided either by EPO or by extra blood. And again, by the 90s US runners as a group were training less than than was common in the previous decade so even with EPO they may not have been able to run as fast.

rupp-certified salaadbar wrote:

TLW wrote:

All the world records are a joke.

If you think there is a 1 clean world record you are utterly delusional.

Men's 800 is clean. There is no effective way to dope a Duane Solomon / David Rudisha / Johnny Gray type. 800/1500 types are very dopable with EPO but VO2max is not the limiting factor for 400/800 men. Nor can anabolics/HGH help them.

Dumbest post in the entire thread.

reader of the forums 2.0 wrote:

Horse hormone wrote:

I think it has been a joke for a lot longer than that. Look at Jim Ryun.

What about him?

He's white. Same hillel house troll goes after Ryun all the time. Doping has been out of control since EPO was introduced, and the E. Africans, while talented, have been allowed to do whatever they like for the most part. Ask Dr. Rosa, Jos Hermens, etc.

Basically 1990 onward is the true EPO era. Do some homework, not hard. Performances today at the 5 and 10 do not match the heyday in quantity or quality. That's because of the fear of in-season testing, which the E. Africans still manage to avoid in terms of numbers of tests in comparison to someone like the hated Galen Rupp, who seems to be tested literally every other week. Geb, KB and others when you look at things with an open mind, are some of the biggest cheats ever to grace the sport. And politics and geography kept them safe from being tested, caught, banned. Guys are right when it's noted the Africans are not tested year round.

Deanouk wrote:

How anyone cannot see the huge anomaly that was the 90's in the progression of middle and distance world records, is beyond me. It was so obvious. And it wasn't just the athletes from 2 countries, as someone suggested, it was happening all over.

Cacho and Baala for a start were never genuine 3:28 runners, and Silva's last lap in Athens was so far fetched it was comical.

I agree with most of what you say, but you also seem to be saying that anyone who runs faster than Coe/Cram was/is on EPO. I'm not sure that you can target just the 90s and point fingers at specific athletes. If you look at things objectively you have to be pretty cynical about all eras of track and field, including the eras when your favourite runners competed. The sudden rise in overall performance of the British Olympic team in 2008 and 2012 is also highly suspicious (as it is with the Spanish in Barcelona, the Greeks in Athens, the Chinese etc etc...). New tests are introduced but you have missed tests, bribes, cover ups and samples being thrown into the trash without ever being tested. There is no transparency and you can't trust anything any more.

More rubbish

"Kiprop ran within a whisker of el G's 1500m in 2015

The fastest 5000m ever was in 2012.

The marathon times have dropped incredible"

Okay maybe not the 10,000m in paris 2012 but where

was the fast 10k with bekele ,galen et all .was it 2011.

1.

kiprop is such an obvious doper.

IGF-1 lr3 is what need to know , where speed is coming from

and as said aids taller athletes more ,besides obvious endurance top ups.

the speed in longer distances , mid and 800m coming from this

centro ,nopers ,farahs kick , select few in 800m all on .

besides add second for track is a given.

2.

same peptide used by more kenyans in marathon

just imagine that speed for whole race on course like berlin

and dont have to imagine any more.

even kenyan javelin throwers using it . look no further

than kenya for being worst in terms of success throw doping

regardless of talent etc .

3.

the fast 5000m in paris just about within realms of peds at use

and methods of time.

but remember gw50 was doing rounds alot more by 2012 before

gone off cards by early 2013

afew fast marathons on very very difficult courses undoubtly due to this

boston and new york . 800m and afew guys like in long distance .

no way anybody using epo in early 80's

wasnt realised til 1989 ,quick wiki search tells you that or history of amegen

and how long does it take to enter sport , showes that being around alittle

longer . as was in big trials in california etc since 1986, 85

and definitely ironically .. used in sprints first ,400m 1987

and cant think of any obvious longer distance till 90's

Dan Libreato wrote:

Basically 1990 onward is the true EPO era. Do some homework, not hard. Performances today at the 5 and 10 do not match the heyday in quantity or quality. That's because of the fear of in-season testing, which the E. Africans still manage to avoid in terms of numbers of tests in comparison to someone like the hated Galen Rupp, who seems to be tested literally every other week. Geb, KB and others when you look at things with an open mind, are some of the biggest cheats ever to grace the sport. And politics and geography kept them safe from being tested, caught, banned. Guys are right when it's noted the Africans are not tested year round.

There is no Kenyan or Ethiopian equivalent to UKAD or USADA, though testers do fly in with some regularity. You'll recall that these most recent high profile positives to come out of Kenya were done in via out of competition tests in Kenya. Rupp is tested so often because USADA has Salazar in its crosshairs.

I think you're out of order on Gebrselassie. Of course he ran well when there was no EPO test but, unlike so many of the Spanish and Moroccans, he continued running at a top level for many years afterwards. Ask him about drugs in sport and I think you will change your mind.

TLW wrote:

TnF has been a joke since the 90s. This is nothing new.

His honest assessment is true. Track is a great sport with some terrible leadership.

You are making EPO sound weak if we can't tell the difference between EPO and blood-doping of the '80s.Did Marty Liquori blood dope? (1977 - 13:15)Craig Virgin? (1980 - 27:29)I'm looking for a basis, and my best guess is you are trying to rationalize why no basis actually exists, in America, for 3 decades, for the most powerful endurance drug ever created.

HRE wrote:

The "start of the EPO era" moves around because no one is going admit to taking it so there was never an equivalent to baseball's Opening Day when someone throws out the first hypodermic needle. The earliest stories I heard of Americans taking EPO go back to 1982 or'83 so it's entirely possible that both Old Centrowitz's and Nenow's records were EPO induced. Also, in those years blood doping was still legal so it's still quite possible that US runners afterwards, "aided" or unaided, were chasing times that were aided either by EPO or by extra blood. And again, by the 90s US runners as a group were training less than than was common in the previous decade so even with EPO they may not have been able to run as fast.

TLW wrote:

TnF has been a joke since the 90s. This is nothing new.

Not only the 1990's but the 1980's as well. I am a BIG Seb Coe fan, unfortunately I cannot help but to be suspicious of how fast he ran back in the early 80's, especially his 1:41 for 800m. For him to be completely in the dark about Diack is hard to believe. The IAAF is such a 'Good Ol' Boys' club of which a lot of money is being generated with little accountability. Amazingly identical to FIFA.

I'm with Willis:

"Blow the whole thing up and start over".

If it was so obvious, and happening all over, and the performances were due to the most powerful endurance drug ever created, which was undetectable until 2000, shouldn't it be easy to see statistically significant evidence outside of Africa?Yet when I do any kind of statistical analysis removing East Africans, I see that 1980s' records are still very competitive, and that only a handful of runners from the rest of the world were able to beat the times for the decade or so that the most powerful endurance drug ever created was completely undetectable (no fear of getting caught), and the decade that followed. Take away North Africans, and most of those outliers disappear. We just have a couple Spanish athletes who managed to bring their national record in line with the European records.Again, EPO is the most powerful endurance drug ever created, and it was happening all over.Since Steve Cram 1985 mark, only Cacho was able to improve the European record, which lasted 16 years. That's a strong argument for one guy EPO doping in Europe for 28 years. Baala broke Cram's mark, and Silva had strong 51.3 second finish. The 1500m might be the event where the strongest case for EPO could be made, in terms of improved VO2max impacting performance, and only 3 people in Europe, over three decades, could hang with Steve Cram. Maybe he blood-doped with Coe.How can we explain this statistical insignificance outside of Africa?- No one except Africans took EPO, for three decades? Even in the 90's, when cycling was rewriting history, and it was completely undetectable, and running didn't even have a 50% no-start rule?- Maybe sea-level caucasians are non-responders to EPO, unlike altitude dwelling Africans?How can we say EPO works for runners, if East Africans, and the occasional Moroccan, are the only ones able to capitalize on it? Renato gets crucified because he says EPO wouldn't help the top Kenyan runners in top shape. This is because Africans are human, and what works for non-Africans works must work for Africans too. Yet can anyone make a case that EPO works for non-African elite runners?

Deanouk wrote:

How anyone cannot see the huge anomaly that was the 90's in the progression of middle and distance world records, is beyond me. It was so obvious. And it wasn't just the athletes from 2 countries, as someone suggested, it was happening all over.

Cacho and Baala for a start were never genuine 3:28 runners, and Silva's last lap in Athens was so far fetched it was comical.

Runners from around the world should comply with the same testing requirements. Otherwise how can you expect that no one will take advantage of the situation? I am sure lots of Kenyans are clean but there is kisorio and he was one of their top guys.

I am with people who think that many are clean but many have the opportunity to cheat through states, agents, coaches, etc.

As for the speculation on records, i hope the IAAF is forced to relate the info that it has.

I don't disagree, but:- Kisorio was busted for steroids.- EPO was undetectable in the '90s. No testing existed equally for everybody.

roelants wrote:

Runners from around the world should comply with the same testing requirements. Otherwise how can you expect that no one will take advantage of the situation? I am sure lots of Kenyans are clean but there is kisorio and he was one of their top guys.

I am with people who think that many are clean but many have the opportunity to cheat through states, agents, coaches, etc.

As for the speculation on records, i hope the IAAF is forced to relate the info that it has.

someone has to ask wrote:

TLW, have you ever heard of running economy?

Faster athletes are more economical, with oxygen and all other fuels. You are subscribing to the 'bigger engine' mythology, which basically ignores economy.

I guess a 1 minute drop in the 10k and 20 second drop in the 5k world records were due to running economy and not an undetectable endurance drug that hit the market......

Also, Cathal Lombard did a lot of drills to work on his running economy that's how he went from a 30:00 guy to a 27 minute guy....

(I literally laughed out loud when reading your post because that's exactly what Lombard said before getting busted - he improved his running economy).

wtfunny wrote:

I suspect the 3000m, 5000m and 10 000m are all clean.

1 7:20.67 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Rieti 01.09.1996

2 7:23.09 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Bruxelles 03.09.1999

3 7:25.02 Ali Saïdi-Sief ALG 15.03.78 1 Monaco 18.08.2000

4 7:25.09 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Bruxelles 28.08.1998

5 7:25.11 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Monaco 02.08.1994

6 7:25.16 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Monaco 10.08.1996

7 7:25.54 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Monaco 08.08.1998

8 7:25.79 Kenenisa Bekele ETH 13.06.82 1 Stockholm 07.08.2007

9 7:25.87 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Bruxelles 23.08.1996

10 7:26.02 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Bruxelles 22.08.1997

Look at the dates. Look at the names that attempted the record.

Keep in mind that the EPO test came out in 2001.

You really believe that's a clean record? Almost 20 years old now.