As a coach I have noticed that some of my most stubborn/determined athletes

Rhody wrote:

This is 100% me. I put in more work then all of my team mates but yet my races are never on-par. People who I'm beating in workouts sail past me in races. My coach is baffled by it and so am I. Any explanations?

Yes. They are more talented.

You are likely racing the workouts. For them, they aren't as dedicated so there is a bigger difference between their practices and races. They only bring it on race day. You bring it all the time.

It may be better to be less dedicated in practice. I over did it in HS and got injured. Weldon joked around sophomore year and stayed healthy and ended up being better.

"Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind."

-Bruce Lee

Ken Kesey's Reindeer Milk wrote:

"Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind."

-Bruce Lee

Nice

Reading back through this thread, everyone is in agreement that it stems from one (or both) of these two things:

- Mental anxiety (the same reason Tommy Boy sucked as a salesman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUA2EzzWAC4

)

- Giving more effort in practice.

Also, I think it's important to not label these people as more dedicated, and therefore support their bad habits. Most already think that if they aren't worrying themselves to death over a race then it means they don't care about it, and that finishing a workout and still being able to stand means you are weak and don't want it enough. It's counter-intuitive to them that showing restraint in practice can take more dedication than hammering it.

What about Kenyans then? They must be under the most stress to run fast since they have hard lives and want to get fast to get out. They seem to run fast still.

Easy Answer wrote:

Rhody wrote:

This is 100% me. I put in more work then all of my team mates but yet my races are never on-par. People who I'm beating in workouts sail past me in races. My coach is baffled by it and so am I. Any explanations?

Overtraining. Take a chill pill in workouts and then race faster.

Seconded. I used to work waaaay too hard in practices. By the time race day came I was physically and mentally spent.

The coach should have told me to back off, but how could THAT work in a team environment? "Hey Disco!!! Take it easy out there! You're working too hard!" Yeah. Right.

Every day should not be a run-til-you-drop day.

dreamin wrote:

Reading back through this thread, everyone is in agreement that it stems from one (or both) of these two things:

- Mental anxiety (the same reason Tommy Boy sucked as a salesman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUA2EzzWAC4

)

- Giving more effort in practice.

Also, I think it's important to not label these people as more dedicated, and therefore support their bad habits. Most already think that if they aren't worrying themselves to death over a race then it means they don't care about it, and that finishing a workout and still being able to stand means you are weak and don't want it enough. It's counter-intuitive to them that showing restraint in practice can take more dedication than hammering it.

#3 In my case I just tried to do what the coach said to the best of my abilities every day, and we did a lot of hard interval training. It killed me. I'll never forget the day I did 5 straight 660y intervals at 1:24 - 1:25 each with a half-track walk in between each. My best 880y was 1:56.5. I left it all on the practice track. What a waste.

Coaches, don't let your athletes do that. You need to realize that some people will run themselves into the ground if told to do so.

There's also no pressure in practice and a lot of pressure in races. Maybe some runners can't handle the stress.

DiscoGary wrote:

#3 In my case I just tried to do what the coach said to the best of my abilities every day, and we did a lot of hard interval training. It killed me. I'll never forget the day I did 5 straight 660y intervals at 1:24 - 1:25 each with a half-track walk in between each. My best 880y was 1:56.5. I left it all on the practice track. What a waste.

Coaches, don't let your athletes do that. You need to realize that some people will run themselves into the ground if told to do so.

Wow that is quite a workout for that PR. I bet you could have ran a great mile that day. I was also around 1:56 and 3:50 and could never have done that.

There is something about resting and relaxing vs striving and trying harder. I'm the type that is super obsessive over every detail of my training. Funny enough, my best season came in college when my coach cut my training way back and I ran the least amount of miles and my workouts where the easiest. I remember going into the season thinking this is crazy because it seems counter intuitive, there where guys on my team alone that where running more in 2 days than I was in an entire week. Oddly enough I ran way better when I "lightened up." I've noticed that almost every person that ran a world record in the interview talks about it feeling easy and "just happening" vs forcing it. A lot of times these individuals think that if they went "all out" or tried harder they would run faster but when they try they can never break that barrier again. What if the key is resting and trusting that we already are vs strifing to become something we think we're not. What if striving is really just a reflection of our insecurity and doubt in our ability when relaxing is a reflection of trust in confidence that we already are. As a result the ability comes out when we relax and allow it to but when we tense up its like its locked within. Just a thought.

Rest wrote:

What if striving is really just a reflection of our insecurity and doubt in our ability, when relaxing is a reflection of trust in confidence that we already are.

I think there is some truth to that.

dreamin wrote:

DiscoGary wrote:

#3 In my case I just tried to do what the coach said to the best of my abilities every day, and we did a lot of hard interval training. It killed me. I'll never forget the day I did 5 straight 660y intervals at 1:24 - 1:25 each with a half-track walk in between each. My best 880y was 1:56.5. I left it all on the practice track. What a waste.

Coaches, don't let your athletes do that. You need to realize that some people will run themselves into the ground if told to do so.

Wow that is quite a workout for that PR. I bet you could have ran a great mile that day. I was also around 1:56 and 3:50 and could never have done that.

I was chasing our 1:52.x 880y guy and he beat me all 5 times.

Every day I ran 5 to 12 races (intervals) chasing that guy, all running hard on the clock. And every day I lost 5 to 12 races no matter what I did. Every friggin day. That kind of negative re-enforcement will mess with your head after a while.

Honestly, I considered the meets as a good chance to get some rest, both mentally and physically. It was all wrong.

Just my two cents, not saying this is THE answer ... I am / was very similar to your athletes who are the hard working under performers, what helped me start running at my best in races was changing what I was focusing on. I used to think way too much about specific ways I wanted each race to play out, who I should be behind and in front of, etc. I thought a very structured plan made the most sense, but if I didn't start well or I started too fast I panicked because I always saw myself as needing to be at specific points at each mile marker. It was like checking off a list throughout the race. When I finally started to just focus on getting as fit as possible and having the mindset that I was simply going for it regardless of what happens I started really improving. I wasn't worrying about where my teammates were, what I thought my coach expected of me, what I thought my friends outside of XC thought of how I did, and a bunch of other made up anxiety. Yes I'm a Ryan Hall fan and many people will roll their eyes here about it but look at how he approached his best races, his strategy was to not have a strategy. Just go to the start line with a ton of confidence in your training and a flexible / aggressive mindset.

I am/was a competitive tuner and have been coaching HS for 8 years now. I overtrained and underperformed throughout HS and have the following observations from my experiences as a coach and athlete.

1. Many HS kids are insecure about a lot of things. Some of them get hooked on our sport and develop an unhealthy obsession with it. Balance is the key. The kids need other hobbies too.

2. The motivational formula that many 'good' coaches uses is the harder you work, the better you'll. Few of us had 'great' coaches however. The great coaches know when to hold the kids back.

3. I've seen coaches come down hard on athletes who don't perform well. I never understood this, especially when the kid is one of the most conscientious on the team. The kid obviously wanted to run well.

4. The most reliable performers on our team are usually the ones with the most stable home situations. Concerned, involved, 2-parent families, parents at most competitions.

5. The overtraining formula is real. Kids might have a manageable running load, but aren't sleeping enough or have poor nutrition.

6. HS kids generally go out way too fast in XC races. Many ruin their races in the first 8 minutes. I would have a very specific plan to hold back certain kids in the first 800-mile to a specific time at one or two checkpoints.

Personality and Performance wrote:

The kind of athletes I'm referring to are athletes who do all the right things, stay disciplined, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get better.

These exist in HS? I've coached kids to stare tiles and FL nationals but have never coached a HSer who does whatever it takes. Where do you find these?

In my experience they say the right things but something is lacking. Real passion, getting enough sleep, mileage, pride... It's always something.

For the OP,

Your "try hard" kids are over thinking it. They are maybe not as talented as some others, but I find "determined" athletes crumble when they are passed by teammates and then perform well below where they should be.

This indoor, take the first two thirds of the race out of their hands. Tell them to isolate and ignore the last third. I like to say if you come through 2/3 on the given pace and then blow up, it is on me. Give them exact splits, ideally a mild cutdown. Stirde out 200m at pace in practice a few days prior, ensure they understand the given starting pace. Make it manageable and insist they run their splits come race day. Try to instill in them that they just have to run tough for the first 2/3, but they can't make decisions about whether they feel good or not. Sometimes they crumble in the last third, but often they get faster and they run well. I think alot of people can gut out the last 1/3 of a three or five k. I feel this helps my non "gamers" be more positive and tough.

The naturally talented and laid back guys do this naturally. They don't worry about what is coming, or how much it hurts in the middle.

Hope this helps, hard to distill my thoughts in a reasonalbly lengthy post.

I had the opportunity to go to a clinic with a few world-class Kenyans (OG/WC medalists) and their attitude was so extremely different than any Western runner's. Did they have any mental tricks or strategies they used when racing? No. Did they have a lucky pair of shoes, necklace, etc.? No. Count calories? No. Get overcome by nerves? No. They were so baffled by any question about this kind of stuff - they just get it. They don't obsess about the stuff they can't control. They just believe in their training, believe in their strength, and will put everything on the line to win. If they win, great. If they don't, they tip their hat to the better-prepared or more-fit man on that day, and move on.

It was a surreal experience- most of the people at the Q and A were typical hobbyjoggers asking hobbyjogger questions. Looking for "the secret"...the difference here is that the Kenyan guys couldn't even wrap their mind around how overly complicated these western runners saw the sport. In their mind, running is so simple. You feel your body, you trust yourself, you do your best, and you don't dwell on it. But that is SO HARD for a Western athlete to grasp! Our cultural DNA is just so diametrically opposed to that attitude.

What we drill into every kid's head in school and in life is just the opposite of that philosophy. Control this, quantify that, worry about all this other stuff. Life in Kenya, while hard at times, is also extremely simple. How's that Buddhist saying go? "Before enlightenment, chop wood; carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood; carry water." It's something like that I guess.

Funny story. I was typical type-A control freak runner for most of college. Never drank, always stayed in and went to bed. You know the type. Had a major injury my junior year and missed all of XC. Started drinking socially that fall, continued to do so in the winter. Raced much more consistently and PRed at 3k by 15 seconds. Now I'm not saying everyone should go get hammered, but I think other posters are on to something with regards to spending mental energy worrying about all these little details. Letting go is good sometimes. Have some fun in your life.

My most consistent runner ever had only 2 bad races his final two years of high school. Before race #1, his grampa died. Before race #2, his parents told him they were getting divorced. You can't ignore the other stuff that happens in your kids' lives. It's not always a physiological or pacing or training related situation when someone runs poorly.

oh really>/? wrote:

Some Things Should be Obvious wrote:

There is a VERY simple explanation for this. Your "most determined" athletes are simply being beaten by better runners. You don't seem to realize that these are better runners because they are not busting their butts in practice. But they are in fact simply better than the "determined" athletes (who give the illusion of being stronger runners simply by working too hard in practice).

Nothing to see here really.

Um, I think he gets that point and you don't seem to understand. Coach wants to discuss what to do about it?

Um, there is nothing "to do about" the fact that better runners beat weaker runners.

Are you really that dense?

I discovered my best performances came after periods where I wasn't working too hard on the track in sessions. Just put in the work and let the results come to you, there is often no need to strain in training. Finish feeling as if you could have done another rep. Once in a while you will want to experience the pain of a race in training, but that's not the most effective form of week in week out training in my personal experience.

It's been said many times before but leave the racing for the races.