As a coach I have noticed that some of my most stubborn/determined athletes

This is 100% me. I put in more work then all of my team mates but yet my races are never on-par. People who I'm beating in workouts sail past me in races. My coach is baffled by it and so am I. Any explanations?

Rhody wrote:

This is 100% me. I put in more work then all of my team mates but yet my races are never on-par. People who I'm beating in workouts sail past me in races. My coach is baffled by it and so am I. Any explanations?

Overtraining. Take a chill pill in workouts and then race faster.

Rhody wrote:

This is 100% me. I put in more work then all of my team mates but yet my races are never on-par. People who I'm beating in workouts sail past me in races. My coach is baffled by it and so am I. Any explanations?

It's because you shouldn't be beating anybody in workouts. You beat people in races. Workout relaxed, race hard. This is probably what the op is witnessing as well.

I don't know if this is exactly what you are describing, but some of the most focused athletes sometimes have trouble adapting when things don't go exactly as they expected. While thorough, disciplined preparation should prepare for a spectrum of scenarios, sometimes I think those same runners are so focused on things going well that they can't deal with a cramp or not feeling as good as expected or being ten seconds too fast or slow at the mile.

What *stipe said makes more sense to what I'm attempting on analyzing than overtraining.

I think there is a tendency, especially on these boards, to automatically jump to the conclusion that under-performance is related to physiological causes such as overtraining. I would contend that this under-performance "issue" is more psychological than anything.

i know this concept well.as a high school coach, the ideal athlete is:someone who never overthinks anything (i.e. you don't want athletes who question training, when to do hard/easy days, how their body feels, the weather, how their competition did in blah blah meet over the weekend etc)you want athletes who believe in the system and just want to compete.my coach used to tell me, " you're too smart to be a great runner"he was totally right. i was super talented, but just needed to chill out...and couldn't in high school. still ran 1:55, but probably should have been a 1:52-53 guy my senior yr. had some struggles in college and then almost quit because of the anxiety but started smoking weed and ran 1:49. probably my talent level in terms of a timeyou only want you athletes to be stubborn when it comes to not letting competitors pass them in races. otherwise, you want an easy-going, trusting ignoramus who never gives up and only wants to get better. hahanow, having some race savvyness and presence of mind doesn't hurt either....!

Personality and Performance wrote:

As a coach I have noticed that some of my most stubborn/determined athletes are also the ones who are most likely to under-perform in races

The kind of athletes I'm referring to are athletes who do all the right things, stay disciplined, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get better. However, when it comes to races these athletes under-perform proportionally higher than my other athletes.

I feel that this is counter intuitive as I would think the athletes who seem to put the most in the sport and have tenacious personalities would be some of my best performers.

Have any of you noticed this with your athletes? Or are there any reasons why you would presume this to be the case?

Furthermore are there any other personality traits that you have noticed that correlate with high performance or low performance?

Personality and Performance wrote:

What *stipe said makes more sense to what I'm attempting on analyzing than overtraining.

I think there is a tendency, especially on these boards, to automatically jump to the conclusion that under-performance is related to physiological causes such as overtraining. I would contend that this under-performance "issue" is more psychological than anything.

I agree with this to the extent that those kids who spend every waking hour thinking about running are probably expending their mental capital. Whereas the kids who do a better job of getting away and recharging have more mental capital come race day.

sdcsdccs wrote:

do a better job of getting away and recharging have more mental capital come race day.

"Recharge" is the key word here. I knew a super talented, anxious high school runner who would tell us he got so anxious before workouts/meets that the night before he'd go to bed feeling like lactic acid was already going through his veins. Above averagr fast, but total head case.

Some great insights in this thread. This area of running psychology is underdiscussed, yet can make or break an athlete.

The job of the coach is to keep the entire team both RELAXED and FOCUSED, even if it means holding back the overtrainers and kicking off slackers.

Any chance they are sneaking in extra workouts outside of your plan? So they are overtraining in fact?

another theory wrote:

Any chance they are sneaking in extra workouts outside of your plan? So they are overtraining in fact?

I would think it's safe to say that they aren't but I guess I can't 100% count it out. When I watch my athletes workout it doesn't seem that they are tired and they seem relaxed. I don't have the luxury of doing lactate or VO2 testing to know for sure if they are within their "zones" but my judgement says that it is something psychological. It's possible I'm missing something though.

I don't mean to count out overtraining as I have had athletes who I feel pushed too hard or I made the mistake of not being observant enough to notice to make changes to their plan, but these athletes I'm referring to and this personality "type" seem to have some change of psychology that is happening during races that causes them to underperform.

What one of the previous posters said about adapting mid-race seems like a possibility. I'm still completely unsure of what is the root cause and more importantly how to identify it and fix it to help my athletes become better runners.

At risk of oversimplifying: some runners like running more than racing.

Personality and Performance wrote:

I don't mean to count out overtraining as I have had athletes who I feel pushed too hard or I made the mistake of not being observant enough to notice to make changes to their plan, but these athletes I'm referring to and this personality "type" seem to have some change of psychology that is happening during races that causes them to underperform.

What one of the previous posters said about adapting mid-race seems like a possibility. I'm still completely unsure of what is the root cause and more importantly how to identify it and fix it to help my athletes become better runners.

I know exactly what you are talking about and it is very likely largely psychological. It's not just adapting to mid-race issues, it's just being a complete headcase and psyching yourself out before the race so you choke.

Type 'A' personality guys work hard and are super dedicated, but they're also over analytical and can talk themselves right out of races. Sometimes the best performers are just those who can "run stupid" and not think about anything, just go out and hammer.

A perfect example was in high school I had a teammate who was already late for a warmup for his 800 race and was just sitting there sprawled out in the sun, spikes on, singlet and shorts (no warmups), eating some chips. He got up, did whatever 10 minute warmup he needed, and set a PR. Meanwhile I obsessed over every detail of my warmup, what time my race was, were they ahead or behind schedule, the wind, the splits, etc and went and bombed my 3200 race.

I wish I could tell you how to fix it. Part of it comes with maturity and experience and recognizing that they have a problem which needs addressing. I don't struggle with the issue much these days, but also very rarely do I find myself on the line for a race that I care about like I did with my high school and college races, so there isn't as much to stress over. I think it's a balance between using that "nervous energy" to your advantage, but relaxing and not obsessing over the race for days/hours beforehand.

Try advising them to not think about the race at all until it's almost time to warmup. They probably won't be able to do this, but I bet if they did it'd help.

dumb is gooder wrote:you want athletes who believe in the system and just want to compete.

I 100% agree with this. I'd go so far as to say its the most important factor in a coach/athlete relationship. If you believe in what you're doing you'll get close to making the best of yourself. (assuming that what you're doing isn't completely off base).

I'd say that a runner who is 100% into a training programme that is, say, 80% optimal, will outperform one who has doubts and doesn't properly believe in a 95% optimal training programme.

Some of my former college teammates fit this mold. they could do 10x800 in 2:10, and do 6 repeat miles on the track in 4:50. But race day, none ever cracked 25:45 for 5 miles in XC. I even beat some of them(by time), and I was never able to do those times in workouts. I attribute this to two things;

A) Strength. I always knew I was built for the marathon. Long, steady running. And, over time that's what wins most long distance races. Staying strong, not fading.

B) Choking. Sorry, but it's the truth. Most of these guys just get to a race and go out too fast or feel fatigued and give in.

Performance anxiety. They don't get this before a training workout. although they might be actually racing in their training. When it's time to race, as others have said, they psyche themselves out with performance anxiety. They have to learn how to enjoy racing. They can do this if they understand that it's all in their head and they can learn how to psyche themselves up witout psyching themselves out.

It takes time, and experience to build that confidence. There can only be one winner in a race, so it is normal for many runners to feel this way and not have the confidence that the winners have.

They're wasting their hate. Spend it all in the workouts and there's nothing left for the race.

Is that supposed to be funny? Who runs on hate?

I used to be like that, then I read the cycling book the Rider by Tim Krabbé. It includes this quote

"racing imitates life, the way it would be without the corruptive influence of civilisation. When you see an enemy lying on the ground, what’s your first reaction? To help him to his feet. In road racing, you kick him to death."

It made me rethink my approach to racing. You can't be passive, you need to be able to turn on a race face and call upon some store of hate every time you pin on a number - and when you've got a number on, anything goes. Kick 'em to death.