Issues with top runner

For what it's worth, his workouts have indicated about 15:40-15:50 for 5k, but his last three races have been 16:17(felt bad, hot temps), 16:16(felt good here, slow course), and 16:29 (said he felt really light-headed during this one).

I really think he should be at the very least around 15:50s right now.

If you feel you physcially over trained him, give him a 2 week taper. He should be fine.

If you mentally over trained him,(too much hard work could affect your runners psyche) he could be toasted for the rest of the season or longer.

I've coached a few distance runners whose race time didn't match their workouts. These few I believe didn't want to pay the pain price during races.

The rest of my kids left it all on the track/x-c course. Maybe that's what's going on with your runner?

Junior year is the hardest year of high school, he is probably loading up on AP classes and has a ton of work, even if he isn't he is probably still trying harder than normal in school and the 1st semester is an adjustment from sophomore year. This is mentally straining and even though he is still young and feels fine, he may not be. Ask him how much sleep he is getting, in my first year of college running I actually got 8 hours of sleep per night (high school I got like 5-6 average) and I felt way better for workouts than I ever did in high school. Junior year kind of sucks because if he has to stay up late to do homework and wants to hang out with friends and have some down time and get enough sleep and study for the SAT/ACT all of that can add up.

Another solution may be to have him train through certain races and have him back off in the workout leading up to a more important race. In college this is easier because you race less often, but for a low key mid season meet, have him hammer the workout leading up to it and then back off for a bigger meet or a championship meet. This prevents over training since you aren't hammering every workout and can lead to better race day performance, which is the ultimate goal. This is just my experience, everyone is different.

Just my two cents, hope it helps.

Thanks guys for the quick input! This kid is awesome, which makes it harder to see him go through this!

The stress angle might be a valid problem. He's a smart kid and also deals with AP courses and other stress. Might be worth checking into. We're doing everything we can to find the solution.

To the post above the last one, we started his taper a week ago so this Saturday will be two weeks. Seeing how he races this weekend will tell a lot. He has been feeling much fresher lately. I think he was a tiny bit over-trained physically, which might have taken a toll mentally. I think I've nipped it in the bud though by backing off a week earlier this year. He still has until two Saturdays from now to get back to his normal self so hopefully we get everything figured out.

Small addition: I should mention that he sweats more than any kid I've ever met, could this maybe mean he loses sodium a lot faster than the average person?

You said iron level was normal. Did the blood test include ferritin? What was the level? Normal level for the general population may be too low for runners.

What about nutrition? Any weight loss from last year or recently? How many calories, carbs, fat, and protein every day? What is eaten on race day and how long before the races?

You probably know all this if you have been around the forum for some time.

TEST

Diet Maybe wrote:

You said iron level was normal. Did the blood test include ferritin? What was the level? Normal level for the general population may be too low for runners.

What about nutrition? Any weight loss from last year or recently? How many calories, carbs, fat, and protein every day? What is eaten on race day and how long before the races?

You probably know all this if you have been around the forum for some time.

He was tested for ferritin as well. His levels were normal for a runner, but we are still having him start taking a small dose each day just in case. He has been doing this since September. I'm not sure on his actual breakdown of nutrients, however I should look into what he eats on race day. Usually it's oatmeal and then a bagel a couple hours before a race. My biggest guesses at this point is mental burn out or electrolyte deficiency.

I do consider myself very informed on a lot of these issues just from my 10 years of experience as a coach, but I think part of being a good coach is admitting when you're at a loss for ideas and seeking out new ones. I definitely am now! I thought I maybe knew the solution, but it does not seem as though things are getting solved, so naturally I turn to the best message board in the world!

Again, thanks everyone for the responses. I will be looking into every thing I can.

He's not recovering.

1. He needs 10 hours of sleep EVERY night. If he really cares he will make it happen.

2. Slow down the workouts. Though at this phase you might want to reduce the quantity.

The Animal Within wrote:

He's not recovering.

1. He needs 10 hours of sleep EVERY night. If he really cares he will make it happen.

2. Slow down the workouts. Though at this phase you might want to reduce the quantity.

Great idea on the sleep. He already gets about 8-9 hours a night depending on homework. He's very diligent about doing the little things, which makes this more confusing to me. Maybe I'll mention trying to get at least 9-10 hours. We already sort of had a talk with him about his sleeping patterns. He has basically gone to bed around the same time every night since the beginning of the school year. Our team does have a problem of not sleeping enough as a whole, but he is in the minority.

The workouts are already pretty slow. Most are at about 5k pace for 400-800m, maybe slightly faster near the end, but we keep it very much in control and preach hitting your times over being faster. The volume has been reduced as well like it always is near this point in the season. They are about 60% the length of what they were at the beginning of the year. No more than 3 miles worth of speed at this point. Probably closer to 2.5 at the end. I don't think it's a matter of how tired the legs are, it's more the dizziness while he's running that is the problem. He says his legs feel fine and his workouts indicate as so.

Like I said, I thought it was over-training. I feel like he'd be still fried in the legs if this were the case. I know it takes a considerable amount of time to recover from that physically, but his main problem seems to be his dizziness.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe we haven't spent enough time this year working on the neuro-muscular side of things. Still doesn't explain the dizziness though.

Runningisbadforyou wrote:

1. Junior boy running like crap, feels light headed during races. Not running time that his workouts indicate despite being careful with recovery.

2. Got a concussion in July, also a highly anxious and stressed out kid at times.

3. Has anyone heard of concussions still affecting a kid 6 months later?

4. Need to figure out what's wrong with him. Regionals this weekend.

1. Stop hammering the workouts and he might start running better. You might be leaving the race in the workout.

2. If you really want to know if he's a headcase, assign a workout that is actually just a time trial. 3x800m at LT with 2min recovery, then 3000m at what you think he can run for two miles. Can he smash the workout? Anxiety problems/headcase. Does he struggle like he does in the race? He's not as fit as you think he is.

3. Yes. Post concussion syndrome but I doubt this is the problem.

4. You won't be able to figure anything out or fix it by this weekend. Even an anxiety thing. Takes time to change an attitude. Hope it was a bad spell and he gets over it.

mwhsxc wrote:

1. Stop hammering the workouts and he might start running better. You might be leaving the race in the workout.

2. If you really want to know if he's a headcase, assign a workout that is actually just a time trial. 3x800m at LT with 2min recovery, then 3000m at what you think he can run for two miles. Can he smash the workout? Anxiety problems/headcase. Does he struggle like he does in the race? He's not as fit as you think he is.

3. Yes. Post concussion syndrome but I doubt this is the problem.

4. You won't be able to figure anything out or fix it by this weekend. Even an anxiety thing. Takes time to change an attitude. Hope it was a bad spell and he gets over it.

Do you think any of these have to do with him being light-headed? We haven't been hammering workouts, just running paces that he can do for an entire 5k basically. I don't know if I want to mix in anything weird at this point for a workout, but it's worth looking into doing something like that to see. I'd rather not having him to an all harder TT when he needs to recover, however. The issue is really more of the dizziness and less of his legs being tired. He says his legs feel pretty good. Hopefully it is just a bad spell and he comes around, but it just sucks to see a kid work towards something for so long and not even have a shot at it.

When I felt lightheaded at the end of races, I had bronchitis and/or had taken an inhaler before it began. does either of these apply?

Sounds to me like he's way too nervous for races, and is putting too much pressure on himself. It's sabotaging his racing.

If everything else in training is going well, then it's a problem with something happening on race day. Is he eating enough the day before/day of races? I had a couple bad results in a row and realized that I wasn't getting enough food in my system in the 24/48 hours before a race. I didn't feel hungry because I was so nervous, so I would nibble on some peanut butter crackers and that's it. I had very little energy, and yes, felt light-headed.

Something to consider

69 is too fine wrote:

When I felt lightheaded at the end of races, I had bronchitis and/or had taken an inhaler before it began. does either of these apply?

Thanks for the input, but he is not sick (at least this moment!) And does not use an inhaler.

Bonkers wrote:

Sounds to me like he's way too nervous for races, and is putting too much pressure on himself. It's sabotaging his racing.

If everything else in training is going well, then it's a problem with something happening on race day. Is he eating enough the day before/day of races? I had a couple bad results in a row and realized that I wasn't getting enough food in my system in the 24/48 hours before a race. I didn't feel hungry because I was so nervous, so I would nibble on some peanut butter crackers and that's it. I had very little energy, and yes, felt light-headed.

Something to consider

That, in my opinion, is what's wrong. He puts a lot of pressure on himself. His uncle was a sub 4 miler so I feel as though he believes he has to live up to something here. I'll ask him tomorrow about the eating, but he usually has the same thing the day before a race every week.