Mary Cain and over-training

When Cain first signed with NOP, there was talk of a "10 year plan" that Salazar had in mind for her. That seemed to go out the window pretty fast. Wonder what her contract with Nike looks like, if there are performance bonuses and penalties like the standard contracts, or is the contract crafted for a 10 year gradual progression?

pretty much every word you wrote is false

Lagat ran 3:26 on 55/week -- mileage isn't always the answer

overtraining Cain makes no sense whatever the world leader, whatever the long range objective

another canuck wrote:

Many of us would think that Rupp/Farah/ are training too hard when we hear the anecdotal evidence, but on the other hand they were 1 and 2 at the Olympics .

And many of us would think they were doped as well.

The fact she went home means it's much more likely she'll never get inducted into the dirty inner circle - if in fact there was one.

I don't find this concept of over training very useful except in retrospect. You can say the same things about under training. Such is the art form of our sport. How do you get it just right and how do you ever know that you did or didn't?

After an athlete performs at the highest level yet, there is no gauge to look at for a reading of how close that athlete is to the red line of getting no return on training.

So how do you know where that line is unless you cross it sometime?

Tom

Here is my problem with all of this. I still believe in many ways, she is being overtrained. Why? High school girl runners are viewed as wispy, speedy goddesses almost by coaches who want them in their D-I programs and later, in their elite programs. The problem is simple science though: When these girls become women, genetics plays a part and it is unbreakable. In many ways I view her as overtrained in the same way Jordan Hasay was overtrained. They try to encourage these women to maintain the physiques they had when they were 17 and basically make them break themselves in order to keep the physique that they view as "perfect." I have seen many Cain races, and I think Mary Cain looks like an athlete who just has a more "real" body. Moreover, to break that mold and whittle her down to someone who is smaller can do little but contribute to a quick breakdown.If you remember Doina Melinte from the indoor mile in the late 80s, she was not exactly small, but she was fit. This is the reason why Melinte's record has stood with women for a couple of decades, and it may still be current.I remember watching Melinte on TV accomplish this feat in, I believe, 1988, and being completely surprised because she did not "look the part" so to speak. My question is this? We have seen Cain's ability to come back from behind in the race and the sprints she can do to win. Why does it matter if she has real thighs and a real backside if those can help her to be great.Letsrunners pick on her like she's washed up. She has NEVER sucked.

another canuck wrote:

Oh, did they take away Rupp's silver medal?

Faster times do require heavier training/harder training. There is a related risk, and I agree that Cain is probably too young for the increased load, but I believe that was salazar's plan.

Everything is relative; With Cain already at 1:59/4:01, success is not just 3:59.9 and 1:58.5, whereas those are wildly successful times for all but the top 5-10 in the world.

And Salazar is indirectly proven right with the new wr this year and a couple of other women at 3:56. That is where he hoped mary would be.

In slight defense of AlSal as far as him noticing how she was doing, I'm sure she was always aiming to please as most teenage girls do. So she may have been feeling worn down, but telling him she was ok and she also probably believed that it's just the training and I'll adapt and it'll get better. And maybe it just didn't quite get better. She was also far away from home, living on her own for the first time. As a coach I've had several talented athletes that sometimes you just can't figure out, it's not fun, but when you do figure it out it's worth it.

This is a great comment. We are all more expert after the fact. And what works for one will not work for all, although there are obviously general principles that must be fairly closely followed.

I think most of us agree that Lagat is a great exception to the rule, so to throw him up as proof of low mileage is misleading. But even with Lagat, what he does do is extremely hard and fast, and too hard and fast for many. So to some people, Lagat would be overtraining!

Melinte completely looked the part except for her odd elbows out running style.

She looked like a female Steve Cram.

The 10-year plan does seem like it went out the window. I recall a Salazar interview where he said something along the lines of, "Mary is doing work right now that will make her a 3:55 1500 runner very soon" (paraphrased)

Overtrained indeed, and I think Salazar deserves some criticism here. Even if some of the work was Mary's own doing, Salazar should have intervened. Let just hope he didn't over-cook a one in 25-year talent.

dsrunner wrote:

pretty much every word you wrote is false

Lagat ran 3:26 on 55/week -- mileage isn't always the answer

Positive A sample

Go easy younguns wrote:

another canuck wrote:

I agree that Salazar was aiming at 3:55 type results, which require the heavier training. Many of us would think that Rupp/Farah/ are training too hard when we hear the anecdotal evidence, but on the other hand they were 1 and 2 at the Olympics .

It's my belief that you can get away with "over" training when you have 10-15 years of solid base behind you. Cain doesn't have that.....yet.

Salazar won't be coaching Cain for another 10-15 years. The time is now.

fred wrote:

dsrunner wrote:

pretty much every word you wrote is false

Lagat ran 3:26 on 55/week -- mileage isn't always the answer

Positive A sample

Negative B sample.

Good point.Then this makes it clear for those wondering. With the elbows, Melinte ran bigger than she was.But, in the same vein, Cain runs smaller than she is. And this is a good thing.

Melinte completely looked the part except for her odd elbows out running style.

She looked like a female Steve Cram.

Practicality wrote:

Good point.

Then this makes it clear for those wondering. With the elbows, Melinte ran bigger than she was.

But, in the same vein, Cain runs smaller than she is. And this is a good thing.

Melinte completely looked the part except for her odd elbows out running style.

She looked like a female Steve Cram.

No. Cain and Melinte both run like barnyard fowl.

genetics lottery winner wrote:

Practicality wrote:

Good point.

Then this makes it clear for those wondering. With the elbows, Melinte ran bigger than she was.

But, in the same vein, Cain runs smaller than she is. And this is a good thing.

No. Cain and Melinte both run like barnyard fowl.

Barnyard fowl run pretty darn fast.

Fast enough wrote:

genetics lottery winner wrote:

No. Cain and Melinte both run like barnyard fowl.

Barnyard fowl run pretty darn fast.

You never see a turkey actually win a turkey trot in a barnyard, do you.

Bleu wrote:

I'm not buying it. If she was doing the "crazy" workouts claimed then why was she hanging out of her uniform. If she crossed trained and lifted why didn't she have a hint of a bicep. The rest of the team looks like they overtrain Cain does not. People believe anything elites say.

Agreed. I think Cain believes what she's saying, but I think time will tell that's not what caused her drop in performance.

She's heavier.

Good for her for staying healthy physically by not just starving herself and getting her times back down, because that's not sustainable. I do think she'll have to learn how to diet down ahead of championship races. Also have to learn how to diet back "up" right after so she doesn't walk the razors edge longer than absolutely necessary.

rojo wrote:

The easiest way to spot it is low ferritin levels, lack of sleep. But it's not easy to spot unless it's a total disaster.

What do you consider a low ferritin that would cause a total disaster? And does lack of sleep have a correlation to the low ferritin or the combination of the two?

New city, new school, new classes, tougher course load, away from parents, new training group, different food, different friends ,,,oF COURSE she went home.

You guys know running but you sure don't know kids or girls or life in general.