Renato Canova thinks German Arne Gabius can run 2:07:30 this weekend in Frankfurt

bigtool05 wrote:

wtf? 6:00-6:10 pace is slow? There are 2:09 marathoners who do most of their mileage at over 7:00 pace!

I love that you say this implying it's common knowledge that it's the norm for guys of this level. Please supply some examples - and keep in mind that environment matters. If a guy does all of his training at 7k feet over hills, like a lot of Kenyans, 7:00 pace is going to be a world apart from running the same pace in the race environment (likely flat and sea-level).

I think you would be hard pressed to find a legit 2:09 guy (not someone who ran 2:09:59 at Boston 2011, for example) who does a majority of his miles at that pace, given adjustments for the environment, when in serious marathon training. That's ~70% of race pace. Consider your average 2:30 sub elite (5:45) pace - does he do 51% or more of his training at 8:13 pace?

But Kenyans can run much closer to sea level best at altitude than a European.

If you look at Renato Canova's trianing that is exactly what he recommends. You can find Mosop's training online and about 50% + of his training is at that pace or slower (in % terms).

95% of letsrun run their easy runs way too hard which means they can't achieve race pace in a relaxed and efficient way in their workouts.

They do not understand that speed is built on deep strength which is easy aerobic runs and pace will increase as they become fitter. They will never reach their potential because they do not understand what true easy effort is, it's where you build low down strength and is an opportunity to raise mileage. Learn to walk before you run.

Arne Gabius was coached by Dieter Baumann until Summer 2011. Since then he is self coached and advised by Canova.

He used to to run his easy runs very slow while he was with Baumann. Then in 2011 he changed a lot in his training, running most of the easy runs around 3'40/km (about 5'54/mile) from this point on, some of them faster in the 3'30 range (around 5'40/mile). Gabius stopped using a heart rate monitor for these runs and went on running by feel.

Gabius started doing Canova Style workouts as well some time in 2011 i think... He was still a 3000/5000 runner then.

When Gabius increased his mileage because he moved up to the 10000 and then the Marathon, his easy pace slowed a little bit … and as some mentioned here, ends up in the range of 3'50/km more often. I'm quite sure he runs all these easy runs by feel now … so he doesn't aim for a specific pace. It's something a lot of Lydiards Runners did as well (as i was told wasn't around at that time)… running by feel, let the pace come to you.

After his marathon debut in October 2014, Gabius didn't opt for a spring marathon, because he wanted to qualify for the 10000m in Beijing, what he did (17th). But he did include some marathon sessions in the 10k preparations in spring as well, including a Canova Style Special Day, running three times 10k under 30 min …. 2*10k with 15 min rest in the morning, one 10k in the evening,

Gabius trained for a marathon pace around 3'/k … but he aims to hit the half mark at 1'03'30 with a big group.... but i personally think, that he will even try to run a negative split and attack the European record of 2'06'36 attack – if he has a nearly perfect day. But there have to be perfect conditions and perfect pacing to make this possible …

Most likely, the 2:07'30 is more realistic ….would still improve the German record by a big margin. But I wouldn't be surprised if he runs under 2:07.

If things won't go so well, Gabius will fight all the way to the finish to stay under the German record (2:08'47). Anyway, there is no other German runner fast enough to beet him if he finishes under 2h10, so he will be German champion and as he has the standard, will be selected for Rio 2016.

Is he training at altitude or not??

So, it doesn't matter what your heart rate is on easy runs? Because I heard that 65% of MHR is the point you start to derive positive aerobic effects from running, and apparently for Arne, running at 3:50 per km is not enough for him to reach this threshold.

4th overall - 2:08:33 German record

Splits of 1:03:23/1:05:10

1:45 behind 3rd place so he was likely running by himself for most of second half

John Kellogg had some good insight on physiological effects of slow vs fast running. More: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_zzkn1-wR0dRFNLT0tXTVlUN3FyZGpiVWRBNld0dw/edit***

At some level it does, since you require a stronger stimulus to see improvements as you get fitter and significant capillarization won't continue to occur without more time spent at faster speeds, inducing more prolonged hypoxia within the Type I fibers and providing greater activation of the Type II fibers. However, during initial stages of fitness building or following a peaking stage (i.e., during base training), running at moderate intensities (somewhere between a normal recovery day pace and a decent "threshold" pace for most runners) for sufficient duration extends capillaries equally around both Type I and Type II muscle fibers even if it's predominantly the Type I units that are actually recruited. This could possibly be due to the fact that expression of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) messenger RNA occurs both within and between muscle fibers following endurance exercise.

Yes and no. A possible "no" in the sense that if you need an easy day and a faster pace would just run you into the ground, grinding it out for the sake of development in some other area (capillarization, etc.) makes the negatives outweigh the positives. But if you feel fine, there are quite a few positives associated with picking up the pace to near marathon pace during the last fourth to last half of a long run.

Yes. Capillary development will be minimal to nonexistent if you never operate at any stronger an effort level than about 45% of max VO2. For most competitive runners, this means a pace of roughly 60% of 5k race pace, or in the neighborhood of 3 minutes per mile slower than 5k race pace. This isn't to say that running really slowly on occasion doesn't have some benefits; it's just that the benefits at these super-slow speeds don't extend to capillary development.

Yes, and Morceli used to do some easy ambling at 9-10 minutes per mile. Shorter said he couldn't find many people who could run fast enough for him to work out with on hard days and also couldn't find enough people who would run as slow as he did on easy days. Willis once remarked that he hadn't seen college teams that ran as slow as he likes to run on recovery days either. There are plenty of other examples.

However, those runners neither sprang forth from the womb able to do 30k at 4:50 pace nor decided one day that they'd jump into running and schedule a few of these long, fast runs during their first season. They had to work up to that level over many years with thousands of hours of running at all manners of speeds, and the cumulative stimulus of all this created the performances they ultimately produce.

The slow running can be helpful, just not in the area of capillarization. As mentioned, the sum total of tens of thousands of miles created all the physical and mental components of success, including the wisdom to find the proper balance between fiery determination, patience and prudence in training and in racing. Most of these runners have already reached their physical limits in many of the measurable physiological facets of running performance before they reach their peak performances, yet they continue to improve in more subtle areas, such as efficient mobilization and sequencing of motor recruitment.

Those extremely slow runs can be very useful for regeneration by keeping connective tissue healthy, providing weight maintenance and promoting running economy through a tremendous amount of repetition in an utterly relaxed state. Even thought the speed seems useless (and would be largely ineffective if this was only speed used), as supplementary running, the sheer act of step after step on autopilot while in no metabolic distress fosters extreme efficiency in the neurons and muscle fibers responsible for fine motor control. Runners who already have a substantial high mileage background have also trained well beyond the point of experiencing a glycogen sparing effect in their long runs; therefore, they may need this easy jogging to provide a fat-burning stimulus to help stabilize weight at an ideal level for running.

In addition, if you're doing a decent number of regular hard workouts during a certain stage of a season, you should run your recovery runs as easy as you need to. While easy doesn't necessarily mean really, really slow, if this is what it takes to recover sometimes, so be it. The time for significant capillary development is probably past by that stage of a season, anyway, so recovery from hard efforts (with maybe a little maintenance of the vascular component as an afterthought) is the name of the game at that time.

There was at least one in the early 1980s using human subjects. Admittedly, these were already active subjects and the sample size was small (as is the norm for many of these larks). But the conclusion was that capillary development did not take place at 45% of max VO2 and it is therefore prudent to keep exercise intensity from becoming too low to effect change in this area.

There have been other studies within the last decade using groups of rats running for various durations and intensities. But rat muscle fiber composition differs markedly in homogeneity from that of the corresponding muscle groups in humans and rat recruitment patterns are altogether different, often involving Type II fibers where Type I fibers are recruited at the same relative intensity in humans. Interested runners should therefore be skeptical of any sweeping conclusions about the effects of various intensities and durations of exercise on human fiber types if the test subjects are rats.

Perhaps it would in completely sedentary subjects who had never undertaken any exercise regime, but that doesn't really apply to any competitive runners that I'm aware of, so I've never thought it was worth looking into.