Mo Farah gets spanked. 6 times as many Brits say Haile G is the GOAT as compared to Farah!!!

Mr. Obvious wrote:

You can prefer Bekele if you want and I won't tell you that you are wrong. I will tell you that I totally disagree that it is a slam dunk that KB is a better runner than HG was.

Haile had greater range, faster at both the 1500 and the marathon.

Haile had far more success in the marathon. (This is of course somewhat balanced against KB's unparalleled success on the dirt).

While KB's times were faster on an absolute basis, Haile slashed the existing world records by enormous amounts while Bekele shaved a little bit off of them.

There is certainly a case to be made for either one.

It's ok, you can tell me I'm wrong. But, and this is a big butt, KB's XC wins were against some of the most competitive fields ever assemble. HG's marathon success was without much competition and a flotilla of pacers that took him deep into the race.

Not sure I would give much credence to the amount of time taken off the record as when HG took it down it made the margin of error tighter for KB.

Of course, as previously stated, none of it matters if they were doped to the gills.

Did he have a safe word?

How can almost 40% of the people think there was someone better than both Geb and Bekele?

Hi Bad Wigins,

I bet reading this article saved u one viagra bill , finally you were able to have sex with your wife without the help of 'chemical' ..bravo

that's a surprise

mo is greatest distance runner of all time

i don't go with medals, even his bucket, but "potential"

only a fool woud disagree he coudn't crack 12'40 / 26'25 - 26'30

however, even without that bucket, he showed me in monaco '15 he is GOAT :

he basically ran "solo"

3'28.9 !!

the pacers were gone within yards wabbiting Asbel to a near-suicidal 54+

mo was in vacuum behind pacing maloofi/iguana/et al !!!

mo basically ran a 3'28.9 solo !!!

with ideal pacing with 2nd set of wabbits, he wouda been looking at :

3'26.5 - 3'27-flat !!!

i have never been any fan, but mo's "solo" to bell monaco-1500 was 2nd toughest run i have ever seen for 1500 !!!

the 3rd fastest "absolute solo" is Bayi-'74, worth probably off : no-wabbits / uneven-pace / windy meet / huge effort in prelims, mainly a suicidal effort to win 800, for a fully-rested, 0 wind, paced to bell in "zurich" of :

~ 3'28-flat/low

Keino's 1500 in mexico is "toughest solo" 1500 i saw ( on vid )

coupla secs quicker at worst of immediate above

he had nominal pacing for a lap

( i woudn't include Ryun in this category as his was somewhat rested 1500 with pacing

just "virtually solo 1500s" )

mo not in Keino's '68 shape by long way, but damn good !!!

mo is 2nd toughest guy ever behind Keino !!!

( albeit, i woud have no hesitation in putting Ryun above them in his 800WR off an earlier prelim just 3 hours before in bed-ridden shape !!!, but he deprecates his

GOAT 800/1500

)

the next fastest "pure solo" was coe in '81 stockholm, but he woudn't have broken 3'29 that day in ideal paced run to bell

mo wouda luved to have had coe pacing him in 55.5s to bell in a 1500...

Paaavo wrote:I've just read Paavo's Wikipedia.

Why the hell he got only 5.5%?

Aren't we too too inclined to pick athletes from recent times in detriment to athletes from the past (that we barely heard of, let alone watched and followed their careers)?

offer drag of 57+ on 1st lap on synthetic & then ask him to hold on :

The 1500m is middle distance and has no bearing in this discussion on best distance runner. It's about the 5 & 10 k and marathon.

Farah may have best range but he's quite a way behind bothe Bekele and Geb as a great distance runner. They both have significantly faster pbs over both distances than MF. If Farah were capable of 12:40 and 26:30 then he'd have gone a darn sight quicker than his best times. He's made no effort to attack either mark because he knows he wouldn't come come close.

Farah may not have had someone drafting directly in front of him in Monaco 1500 but he still had a pacer in Kilrop less than 10m ahead pacing him. That is a great deal more beneficial than having no one ahead.

Bayi's solo 3:32.2, great as it was, had decent conditions and was run off splits in the 54, 1:51 range. This is nowhere near as destructive as Coe's 52, 1:49 splits in his 3:31.

Bayi's run was nowhere near worth 3:28 flat. He never showed anything approaching that ability in his entire career. If you think that run in 74 was worth over 4 secs faster than the time me he actually produced, then Coe's 3:31 was worth significantly faster.

Ryun's imaginary times based on manipulation of endless variables is worth nothing when considering who were the best 800/1500 runners. He wouldn't be in the top 5 on most lists. To be even in consideration he had to have actually won something at either distance. He didn't. International running is first and foremost about winning at major champs and events. Ryun's record in this area is poor.

bigtool05 wrote:

Stagger Lee wrote:

Running is time obsessed, so that would obviously favor more recent runners. This is the complete opposite of, say a sport like baseball, where nostalgia really drives the conversation. You still here guys talk about Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays....

The difference is, those guys were just as good as the best guys today. Paavo Nurmi was slow as molasses compared to the best guys today. The freaking marathon world record is basically the same pace as Nurmi's 5k pr. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be in the conversation as one of the greats of our sport, but he dominated against a much, much smaller talent pool than Bekele or Geb.

Why do you think the baseballers were as good as the best guys today? You're comparing them to their contemporaries, and comparing Nurmi to a clock. If we could see Babe Ruth face Félix Hernández, I'm guessing he'd look about as good as Emil Zátopek would look against Eliud Kipchoge. The difference is, we can't see the Babe face the King, but we can look at the PRs of Zatopek and Kipchoge.

Athletes get better with time. This applies to the competition as well. "Versus the clock" is never going to hold up as well as "versus contemporaries".

yes

but 1500/mile times woud also be under consideration as additional factors in "tie-breaks"

- nurmi set 1500 & mile wrs

- geb is 2nd fastest 1500i runner

shorter distances give much more additional info which has to be considered

in this case, mo, a guy who is primarily a 5k/10k guy can run a ~ 3'26.5+ !!! in a "perfect" paced race, drafted to to bell

this indicates that if 5k/10k are his primary events & he can run 3'26.5+ ideally off it, then he has huge unshown ability in 5k/10k clock-chases

no

he has as ~ many/more golds as them but never chased the clock which in era of diamond league is very hard as guys chase the win rather than the clock apart from usually doha at start & monaco, purely down to Asbel

there has not been a serious 5k tt since paris-'12 & that was only because isiah suicidally sacrificied himself in 4th km, something no elite has been willing to do since & not even before for few years

see above

anyone with a clue woud realise mo is capable of 12'40/26'30 at worst but no interest in chasing clock & risk losing

his win record is too important to him as it makes him look invincible to others when majors roll around

see above

in paris-12, the ethiopian finished with a 54+ run wide in both curves for a 12'46 !!!

that was worth no worse than 12'40 at even-pace & route-1 & mo said he wouda beaten them if he'd been in race & that looks damn good call not hubris

nonsense

if you think an ancient 12'53pb with a 54+ kick, shortly after joining sal is representative of his peak 5k ability, then you know nothing about the sport

as for 10k, in his 26'50+ this year, his team offered the kenyans $10k++ to pace the race at 26'30 pace to at worst 5k but they refused & it became a tactical race

mo wanted a super-fast 10k in eugene but kenyans even though offered huge $$$ refused the offer to pace it !!!

utterly clueless

we are talking "physical" drafting

mo got virtually none

at 0.7s/lap to bell if given 2nd set of pacers, that wouda got him 3'27-flat & he can have few tenths off that for uneven pace

mo knew Asbel was class of field & settled to run his own race not possibly implode if following Asbel

the fact is mo ran that race in a virtual vacuum

trivial

mo was running his own race not concerned about Asbel unless Asbel came back to them

Asbel didn't

nonsense

it was windy meet which wrecked the 800 times as commentator said about "wind on backstretch"

Bayi also ran in a wide-open stadium open to elements & flags can be seen fluttering in the vid

coe had drafting on part of 1st lap

Bayi had none

utter nonsense

3'32.16 - ( 2.75* 0.7 ) = 3'30.2+

knock off some tenths for uneven pace & that is well into 3'29s

knock off some tenths for wind & that has to be at worst 3'29-flat

then consider he was no way fresh for race as run prelims of the 1500 & the 800 rounds/final where he made a suicidal bid to match Kipkurgat on 1st lap & faded on 2nd lap but still clocked 1'45+

that gets him well into 3'28s

how clueless are you ???

you clearly never saw this race live on tv or followed Bayi until last big race in '80

this meet in '74 was by far the peak shape of his career & he was never anywhere in the same ballpark of this shape despite breaking mile wr the next year

yes

~ 3'29-flat

coe came in much more rested for his run on a little/0 wind day having run a 1'47.5 coupla days before

Bayi's shape was best part of 1s better than coe in stockholm

nonsense

you clearly can't apply logic

clueless

he tied 800wr after a prelim earlier in day & when so ill he shoudn't even have been running !!!

his 800 shape in '67 when at his peak wouda been utterly off the scale but he ran primarily mile & 1500 at the time & even a 2 mile !

this shows you have no clue about the sport

did you even see Bayi run in '74 let alone Ryun ???

clueless

his great years were '66 & then unmatched '67, both of which were non-championship years

if olympics had been held in either of those years he wouda walked away with double gold in some incredible efforts

by '68 he was finished due to mono

how many times do you have to be told this ???

clueless

his silver in '68 was an incredible performance considering the altitude

how clueless are you that the physiological "experts" at the time said it coud not be run < 3'39 at that altitude & he ran 3'37+ !!! even when shadow of his unsurpassed '67 shape

nonsense

it is part of the puzzle

i know there will be gold medallists in summer of next year

i do not know when the next 800 or 1500 wr will be

breaking world records & by the margins done so is very very important

who the hell remembers vasala or peter rono or schumann today ???

they are hugely more "better" runners because they won a gold ???

utterly clueless

you have been told the Ryun story numerous times & his illness of '68 & you still post the same drivel

about right wrote:

The results of an Athletics Weekly poll are in and the results are as follow:

Haile Gebrselassie – 45.6%

Emil Zátopek – 20.3%

Kenenisa Bekele -15.2%

Mo Farah – 8.6%

Paavo Nurmi -5.5%

Lasse Viren – 3%

Abebe Bikila – 1.8%

I think the results are pretty good.

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/gebrselassie-is-the-greatest-35025/

its freaking awesome emil zatopek is up there

More shoulda, coulda, woulda. Almost everything you write is based on fantasy and not facts. You have no semblance of reality.

It's a fact that Farah could have at any time over the last 4 seasons requested an army of rabbits to pace him in any number of circuit races for big bucks. He hasn't.

He knows his place at the top of the pile is reliant on at least 1 decent outdoor WR or else a set of pbs close to those of Bekele and Geb. His clear reluctance to do so indicates that he knows he can't approach their times.

It's also a fact that you can't extrapolate a predicted 5 & 10k times based on a 1500 time that he never actually ran. He ran 3:28.9 on the fastest track we know of, with almost perfect even pace, in good conditions and with the perfect rabbit about 10m in front throughout. No, he may not have had any drafting to the bell, but the other factors pretty much cancel that out. If it was worth the 3:26.5 you fantasise about then he would have had no trouble latching on to Kiprop, who himself didn't manage to run that fast.

You do understand that just because there may have been a bit of wind on 1 day in a championships, that doesn't mean there was the same wind every day? The conditions for the 1500 in 74 were warm and still. On the threads I've read recently in which you have left comments, you seem obsessed with wind readings and temperature. Everyone seems to be running in gale force winds or desert conditions. Please provide a link or factual evidence of the wind reading in the Christchurch stadium that day? And while youre at it, perhaps you could also prove that the wind reading in Stockholm 81 was 0m/sec.

No one gets 2.75 laps of drafting in a 1500m up to the bell. It's impossible to be drafted from the very start. The first 100m is jostling for position. An athlete can at most hope for 1000m drafting to the bell. Bayi's time of 3:32.16 can come down by 1.75, which brings it to 3:30.41.

Bayi's splits were not that uneven. He went through 400m in 54.9. Compare that to Coe's 52.4 in his 3:31. The first was fast but not unusual in a 3:32 run, but the second was suicidal. Coe's run was much more uneven and worth a lot more off his time than Bayi.

Bayi's run was not in windy conditions, so no extra time knocked off there.

There is also no way of assessing how much time to knock off for it being a Championship final. As others have proved to you in the past, there are numerous examples of athletes using rounds to reach a peak performance, which was never repeated on the circuit.

It was Bayi's 5th race in 7 days, including 3 days rest within that week. He would have trained specifically to be able to withstand those rounds to reach a peak in the 1500 final. The fastest he ran in the 800 was 1:45.3. No great shakes.

I've never had the misfortune of discussing Ryun on here with you before, but know about his career well enough. He wasn't ill in Mexico City. He never won a global title at any distance.

I never said he wasn't capable of winning one, but it is a fact that he never did. There have been many talented athletes who've not won a world or Olympic title that should have. Regardless, when you're talking about the best ever middle distance runner, you're going to need at least one title to bring to the table. All you put forward are a series of fanciful times that he never actually ran. As I said before, there are a handful of guys with actual achievements that are beyond what Ryan did.

"...his great years were '66 & then unmatched '67, both of which were non-championship years

if olympics had been held in either of those years he wouda walked away with double gold in some incredible efforts..."

If the OLYS were held in '71 Vaatainen woulda doubled.

If '74 then Foster would have. Blah blah.....

This assumes the competition were as 'prepared' in off years, which they generally are not (eg Viren in 74).

Anyway, much as I admire earlier heroes, the bar was so much lower that GOAT is out of the question for the likes of Zatopek and Nurmi. Heck how many were even training in those days?

All depends on your definition. Greatest WHATof all time? Inspirational figure? In that case there's numerous candidates from Pheidippides to Dorando Pietri to Frank Shorter (who loses points because the running boom would have happened anyway).

If you discount inspiration and charisma, all that's left is times and golds. The whole Mo /Geb/Kenny thing is, I think, most intriguing. As things stand Mo is indeed way back, however, he could yet get GOAT. Look at his achievements and he is STILL dissed. Time is running out. IMO he would be foolish to rest on his win-loss record and not even try for WR.

I could understand resting on his golds if most people believed he "would if he could" but they don't. He really has NOTHING to lose. If he got WR in 5 and 10 for golds in Rio I would call him GOAT.

Will it happen? Not likely. If he ever could, I think he's left it too late. Gold yes. WR nope.

Runners from the 50s-70s have some merits: they were pioneers in intensive training, they have developed workout plans, running techniques and the future generations inspired from them.

They didn't had the media attention and neither the possibilities the runners today have.

They weren't making a fortune out of running.

It was their human being running.

George Ilie wrote:

Runners from the 50s-70s have some merits: they were pioneers in intensive training, they have developed workout plans, running techniques and the future generations inspired from them.

They didn't had the media attention and neither the possibilities the runners today have.

They weren't making a fortune out of running.

It was their human being running.

That's what I'm talking about.

I don't agree at all with the argument that runners with faster times are better, regardless of the decade they lived in. That's too simplistic.

We have to put things in perspective.

Today's runners have access to an array of resources that runners from the past did not have.

What you mentioned is only one of the resources clearly available for today's runners. As you said, in the past they did not know that the best training method is based on high mileage with a precisely tuned dose of track work. Today we know this for a fact; no one is trying to reinvent the wheel in that regard (it was tried in late 80's and early 90's with HIIT focused trainings). As you said, they had to come up and experiment with their own methods. They were not handed the wheel!

Yet, at any point in time, in this sport, the playing field is level. Just like they were not handed the wheel, so did their competitors. And, still, they managed to destroy the competition like nothing else in history.

What would Zátopek, Nurmi and possibly others (Bikila) achieve with the current state of art in physiology, training, recovery, medicine, nutrition, coaching, psychology, injury prevention, injury treatment, ... (the list goes on) ...? Nobody knows.

Would they be just sub elite? I guess not. Would they be world class? Probably. Would they beat the hell out of KB and HG? Maybe.

Abebe Bikila running 2:12 in 1964 is out of this world (not to mention his barefoot WR in the previous Olympics). He was way ahead of his time. I see much more value in such achievement than some golds taken in World Championships with slow times (to the current standards).

Just to put things in perspective, a half century later, a 2:10 marathon is still a very competitive time (just look at our reactions with Puskedra performance at Chicago). Just remember the long list mentioned above; 50 years might give one quite an edge.

Runners from past times are falling into oblivion. And undeservedly so, in my opinion.

It depends on how people evaluate a runner.

For me, the value of a runner depends on:

- Olympic medals won;

- variety of distances where he/she dominated;

- world/Olympic records set;

- years of dominance;

- personality as a runner (see how Zatopek or Prefontaine worked to become better);

- innovation in running.

Zatopek had all of these.

3 gold medals in a single Olympics competition. He ran the marathon for the first time in his life then and he won.

As Wikipedia says, he was the "instigator" of hypoventilation training and interval workouts.

Btw, I'm surprised to see that people are laughing at me when I say "breath through nose" when running (is related to hypoventilation).

ventolin^3 wrote:

mo is greatest distance runner of all time

.....

anyone with a clue woud realise mo is capable of 12'40/26'30 ....

anyone with a clue would realize that he'd have to be capable of significantly faster times than both these to be even the 2nd greatest distance runner of all time.

clueless

you once again show no clue as to applying logic

utter nonsense

clearly the concepts of :

- even pace

- temperate weather

- 0/little wind

- perfect drafting to bell

- etc

are beyond you in trying to "standardise" performances

only the clueless woud not understand the concept of standardisation or attempt to do so

clueless

there are huge number of other elite 5k & 10k guys in past 1/2 decade

name the races they tried to chase a fast time on the circuit ??

i'll name them :

1 occasion

paris-'12 when isiah sacrificied himself allowing 1/2 dozen guys < 12'50

you seem to have no clue that winning diamond league for these guys is much more important than chasing the clock

where are all the fast tts from the 2 gebs/isiah/other kenyans/other ethiopians in past 5y ??

nor has any other elite

yes

but they weren't running in the diamond league era in it's full majesty where it is far more important to win, meaning all the races end up sit'n'kick apart from notable exception of paris-'12, which also did end up sit'n'kick at bell but at least there was a decent pace to bell

name the other races where any of the 6 guys < 12'50 set up a meet to repeat/better their pbs ?

can't you read ???

did you not comprehend the story i mentioned of mo's team offering $10k++ to the kenyans to pace him thru 5k, hopefully even to 6k at 26'30 pace & they flatly refused ?!

clueless

i made a generalisation

i said any elite 5k/10k guy who can run a virtually solo 3'28.9 has some incredible 5k/10k ability if he got the perfect race

utter nonsense

how many times have you got to be told it's post-millennium 400m record is lashawn's 44.3 when he ran 43.9 twice in same season !!!

how can this track be so utterly rubbish for 400 if you think it is the fastest ???

learn to comprehend iaaf rules of 65% energy return

nonsense

mo went thru 400 in ~ 54.9 which was too quick for pace he wouda wanted - undrafted

he wouda wanted a paced 55.4+

he then went thru next lap in ~ 56.4 again undrafted

bell in 2'33.4 meaning last 400 of 55.5

last 300 in ~ 41.1 or 54.8 pace !!

even after all that lack of drafting & uneven pace, mo still accelerated in last 300 !!!

nonsense

no one gets any drafting from huge distance behind & the distance was 15m+ at points

mo was running in a total vacuum

utter total nonsense

no drafting in an uneven paced race where he was even speeding up in last 300 doesn't cancel out whatever absurd factors you claim

mo shouda been damn angry his team didn't pay for 2nd set of pacers

completely clueless

once again your analysis is woeful

mo was capable of 3'26.5+ in perfect race, but Asbel at worst 3'26-flat & perhaps 3'25-high if perfect pacing to bell in uneven pace not starting in a stoopid 53.9

neither got anywhere close to a perfect race but Asbel is still a good 0.5 - 0.75s faster than mo over 1500

mo is damn close to Asbel for intrinisic 1500 ability & mo doesn't even train for the 1500 !!!

there is a significant chance that if mo had trained exclusively for 1500 when joining sal in late-'10/early-11 with more speedwork & less endurance that he woud now hold the 1500 WR !!!

clueless

see the vid where flags are fluttering

there was significant wind for that 1500

nonsense

it was a windy race as obvious to anyone who looks at the flags

also :

the winds were in range 5 - 8m/s for end-jan/start-feb

that is windy !

clueless

wind & temperature wrecks races

is this beyond you ??

utter nonsense

i only state conditions mentioned or observed from vid for certain races discussed here & linked above to wind at the time

those races had nothing like 70F/minimal wind conditions

are you so clueless as to believe that running in big wind or exorbitant temperatures doesn't wreck races ???

completely clueless

they don't take wind readings in a 1500

see link above for wind readings at the time : 5 - 8m/s, which is damn windy !

no race report or commentator has said there was any significant wind for that race

go fetch if you have any report of anything other than minimal wind

nonsense

iif you are in lane 1 or 2 you can get drafting virtually immediately as ingebritsen did at start in monaco

nonsense

ingebritsen on inside gets virtually immediate drafting

clueless

only if elite is in outer lanes & has to pull into lane 1

if elite is in lane 1 or 2, they can get immediate drafting

nonsense

here is an example of coe getting drafting within seconds

nonsense

in small field race with elite in lane 1 or 2 & pacer inside them, drafting can be almost immediate

that makes it 1.92s for 3'30.24

clueless

Bayi's is 54.9 completely solo on a windy day

coe had drafting part of 1st lap in non-windy race

the effort difference wouda been in region of ~ 1.5s rather than 2.5s

clueless

54.9 on windy day was fastest ever opener at the time by huge way

Ryun's opener was 60.5 in his WR !!!

the only other fast opener i recall was Keino in mexico but that was 56+

Bayi's 54.9 on a windy day was shockingly fast for era considering the fatigue he came into that race with

& he ran 3'31.9 on minimal wind day, more drafting & far more rested for it

those are proper factors which annul the disadvantage of his quicker opener compared to Bayi

& he had less wind to deal with, more drafting & far more rested for it which ends up with Bayi having overall quicker time for fully rested 1500 in 0/little wind race

utter total drivel

the end-jan/start-feb was seriously windy as link shows

he deserves at least 1s for the wind, maybe more

we can make a damn good guess if you have seen enough races

you clearly haven't

nonsense

Bayi is only one who ran a huge pb/WR when winning gold in a major 1500 final

in past 55y

Rudy/Caballo are only man to have run a WR in a major 800 final outdoors in past 39y

nonsense

we are talking a guy with no western coaching & running freely more on talent than some coaching genius, which i doubt he got in east africa in '74

he entered the 800 when he shouda been just concentrating on 1500 as he had no form over 800 entering meet but considered a potential great 1500 runner

the 800 races/1500 prelims probably cost him ~ 1s+ for the 1500 final

how clueless are you ???

have you no idea of the circumstances ???

Bayi had no form over 800 & had just seen the great Kipkurgat run a 1'44.38 auto-time WR in the semi !!!

he wouda known Kip was quantum leap better than anyone in the field, including boit, but Bayi still virtually committed suicide by trying to challenge the great man on 1st lap

he faded badly to that 1'45+ & that musta done huge damage to his 1500 chances

even though he ran 3'32.1WR,he probably threw away ~ 1s+ from exertions of those accumulated 800 & 1500 prelims

that's not including handicap of wind or no drafting

laughable !

under your 10 different handles you have

clearly you don't

complete utter drivel !!!

how can you claim to know about Ryun's career & not know about the mono that wrecked his career after '67 ???

& if you had slightest clue about his career you woud know why

he had smashed the 1500WR by an incredible 2.5s off a jog to 300m in 95F !!!

only Rono, Kipketer & Komen come close to him for lacking olympic gold

none got shot at gold either due to boycott or illness

no you don't

virtually unbeaten for 2y in '66/'67 winning every significant race & demolishing his best available opposition in Keino & the germans not by 1s but by 4s at his peak in separate races makes you an all-time great

clueless

logical analysis indicates he was in

1'39.9 / 3'24.2 shape at his '67 peak on a '70s synthetic

utter drivel

the only middle distance guys who never won an olympic gold who come anywhere close to Ryun are Rono, Komen & Kipketer in last near 50y, although pity for Kipkurgat his '74 shape wasn't there in '72 or '76 as he was probably in 1'41-high shape in a fully rested, wind-free, paced to bell in his christchurch shape

Paaavo wrote:

I've just read Paavo's Wikipedia.

Why the hell he got only 5.5%?

Aren't we too too inclined to pick athletes from recent times in detriment to athletes from the past (that we barely heard of, let alone watched and followed their careers)?

You re implying people should vote for someone they've never heard of.