why do elite ultra-runners weigh more than elite marathoners?

Do you really think these hills are significantly different than the ones that the kenyans grow up running on? Now the climate is a bit different but I am not sure that influences muscle much.

If you look at Gift Kehle, he doesn't look different than any other elite marathon guy. And yeah I think running at 6 min on the uphill direction is enough to make you competive at pretty much anything. Maybe he runs into fueling issues at 75 miles or something but I doubt it. If there were 50k races that were willing to pay travel expenses, I imagine you would see guys like him and the rest at all the US races. And cash like that would incentives the second tier guys (i.e. all the 2:10-2:15 guy) to give it a shot. Some of them would turn out to be good.

In longer trail ultras you hike up the steepest hills. Did the Kenyans grow up hiking up steep hills (no, just because you have practised hill running you don´t automatically become good at hiking)?

big pig wrote:

Have you ever seen ultra runners eat? It is shocking to observe. They can shut down an all you can eat buffet.

Heck, my college XC team could do that.

Um, did I say anything about the hills the Kenyans train on?

I'm agreeing with you for the most part!

However, I don't think people realize that the course variety in MUT Running is very diverse. An ultra isn't just an ultra. Course profile and terrain determines these differences more than the actual distance of the race.

For the most part, yes these guys can dominate....if they just had the opportunities to travel internationally...

Brojo's- WTF is this thread doing on the homepage? Did I miss something?

Agree that there are many Africans, Ethiopians (training for Comrades, big road marathons) who could dominate ultras if they focused on ultras.

And that would include trail 100 milers and most MUT runs.

Not all of these people would be able to move up in distance successfully. But if you eliminated all races 5k to the marathon, there would be many from the elite talent pool currently in that group that would dominate all types of ultras.

The reasons these runners do not do the trail 100 milers and MUT runs

-money. more sponsorship and prize money on the roads up to marathon

-prestige. Winning Western States 100 means little to a S African when compared to doing well at Comrades.

-exposure. Why do a trail race where there are no crowds, no tv or other media coverage? More people will see you doing well at a city road marathon.

-predictability. The longer the race, and the worse the trail surface/terrain, the more that can go wrong. Weather, fueling/hydration, route finding, injuries etc all come into play. If you are elite, why risk those unknowns for less money, prestige and exposure?

-running culture. aside from pockets of mountain racing in Europe, Comrades in S Africa, and the 100 mile trail scene in the US, ultras and MUT races are not well known among runners. You would be out of place training for an ultra at Iten, for example

I honestly think East Africans could dominate Ultras if there was more money in it. For my own curiosity, I'd love to know how the traditional ultra community would react to it. The sport seems to seriously lack diversity - worldwide as a whole - when compared to traditional marathon. It could use more African runners.

A name that comes to mind was Thompson Magawana. He was built like a marathoner, and believe he had a PB of 2:10:xx. But he dominated at some of the bigger ultras in the 80's like Two Oceans.

newtotheseforums wrote:

New to the forums.

Who is jaguar1?

Someone said world champion?

Camille Herron, current 50K and 100K World Champion

serious question OP wrote:

but isn't calories burned determined by distance - with any discrepancy in burn negligible?

that is: cal burned 1 mile running fast = cal burned 1 mile running slow

Not at all, you burn more calories running at a faster pace than a slower pace. Height, weight, and muscle mass are also factors.

somequickones wrote:

Anton, 160 lbs

Dean, 155 lbs

Scott Jurek, 165 lbs

Max King, 135 lbs

Tim Olson, 165 lbs

Joe F, 155 lbs

The only elite distance runner here is the lightest ,Max King.

The rest here are ultra guys.

Ultraists tend to be older(thus likely heavier), many have real paying jobs, and are beer drinking vegans.

Kilian Jornet's nickname is "Tubby"

jaguar1 had no power on the trails at Lake Sonoma. She looked tremendously weak.

When it comes down to it, the determining factor is the average speed of the race. A skinny runner is mechanically much more efficient at higher speed. An ultra race with flatter terrain and smooth ground will let the runners open up their stride, allowing those that can run 6 min/mi or faster very efficiently. Or you can look at mountain races and mountainous ultras and see slower winning paces and those SAME elite athletes over flat terrain get beat all the time by folks of the same height but carry 20+ more lbs.

runsomemore wrote:

serious question OP wrote:

but isn't calories burned determined by distance - with any discrepancy in burn negligible?

that is: cal burned 1 mile running fast = cal burned 1 mile running slow

Not at all, you burn more calories running at a faster pace than a slower pace. Height, weight, and muscle mass are also factors.

This is incorrect. It's the same.

A fat body can run far but it cannot run fast.

RDP wrote:

A name that comes to mind was Thompson Magawana. He was built like a marathoner, and believe he had a PB of 2:10:xx. But he dominated at some of the bigger ultras in the 80's like Two Oceans.

He was a bit of an outlier - 2:10 marathon yes, 3:03 Two Oceans which is still the record, and still holds the world 50k record from the 50k mark in that 56km race..

However Two Oceans and any 50k on roads are much more like a marathon than an ultra, so would expect good marathoners to dominate. Thompson never did better than 5th in Comrades..

The dominant Comrades winner Bruce Fordyce (and still 50mile WR holder) was a small light man, don't have exact numbers but would guess about 5'8" and 140lbs or less (based on standing next to him ;-)

His marathon PR was only 2:17 IIRC, but he beat many men with better marathon PRs, many times..

Then again look at Yiannis Kouris at 5'7" and 141lbs,

marathon PR 2:24. Also a smaller guy, and utterly dominant at ultra road and track distances.

my guess is road and track ultras still favor lighter guys, but there doesn't seem to be a good correlation between marathon PR and ultra times.

On the trail as S. Canaday says, there are lots of other considerations involving durability, hill hiking skills, descending skills, etc etc so those guys may well be bigger - cf the ultra guys posted above, tend to the 160-lb bracket..

I should state as a disclaimer that i don't really follow ultrarunning too much nor do i particularly like it. so that may hurt my opinion or make it more objective...I read something Dean Karnazes or one of the older ultra guys said and it has stuck with me. He said one of the most important things he sees as physically beneficial to ultra training is body symmetry. Most have one leg longer than the other, a slightly curved spine, something. He says he's totally balanced, so all of the crazy mileage he does lands exactly evenly on each foot, bone, joint, muscle, ligament etc.it makes sense. i know all of the running related injuries I've ever had are imbalance ones. and the body symmetry argument would certainly point to the "genetics" line of reasoning of why they are slightly heavier. maybe the balanced bodies also happen to carry slightly more weight for some reason? maybe they are heavier because they run so much and they are always eating during runs?maybe they aren't as good of athletes?!!!

RacingtheCantaloupe wrote:

The same reason mountain goats and bighorn sheep weigh more than pronghorns and springboks.

In all seriousness, there is a certain amount of muscle and bulk necessary to thrive at distances longer than 26.2. Your body simply takes a massive amount of pounding and must be stronger. That bulk prohibits as much success at 26.2, where the gazelles of the running world can breeze through with smaller frames.

I've never run an ultra. It's speculation.