Did the Beijing WC prove that Arthur Lydiard method is outdated?

dfsafasdfs wrote:

IF you did intervals year-round, Lydiard would say you are doing it wrong. Therefore, what most pros today do, including the Kenyans, is not Lydiard training. That's like saying they all do Igloi training because they all run interval workouts at some point in training.

Exactly. People pick one similarity and claim it's all Lydiard essentially.

How many people do the "hill springing" that he recommended?

TruthSayer wrote:

the Africans are not doing LSD followed by hill phase followed by few weeks of sprints. People like Dibaba must be doing intervals year round. But to the point..the US athletes' lack of speed is being exposed. Even 3.32 man Jager was taken to the woodshed. The Africans always have the answer. Maybe Peter Coe was right after all?

The truth is that you don't know what anyone is doing. You say " must be ", but you don't know because you aren't there, and you have never seen her train.

If you follow Lydiard's schedule to a tee, you are probably only running your fastest in a short peak period which is all his athletes needed to do. Many runners try to race fast for 8+ months out of the year and therefore it makes sense you would be doing intervals almost year round. I would interpret that as a different goal, not a different training philosophy.

things change wrote:

dfsafasdfs wrote:

IF you did intervals year-round, Lydiard would say you are doing it wrong. Therefore, what most pros today do, including the Kenyans, is not Lydiard training. That's like saying they all do Igloi training because they all run interval workouts at some point in training.

Exactly. People pick one similarity and claim it's all Lydiard essentially.

How many people do the "hill springing" that he recommended?

It is a philosophy, not a custom written, individualized, training program.

high on a mountain wrote:

things change wrote:

Exactly. People pick one similarity and claim it's all Lydiard essentially.

How many people do the "hill springing" that he recommended?

It is a philosophy, not a custom written, individualized, training program.

Thanks, tips.

reader of the forums wrote:

TruthSayer wrote:

Did the Beijing WC prove that Arthur Lydiard method is outdated?

No.

^ We had the correct answer on the first page ^

the grand inquisitor wrote:

reader of the forums wrote:

No.

^ We had the correct answer on the first page ^

Correct, It's just fine if you want to participate without contending.

Last in the women's 1500, 6th for men. Still decent.

HardLoper wrote:

If you follow Lydiard's schedule to a tee, you are probably only running your fastest in a short peak period which is all his athletes needed to do. Many runners try to race fast for 8+ months out of the year and therefore it makes sense you would be doing intervals almost year round. I would interpret that as a different goal, not a different training philosophy.

So, even though everything is different they are the same? Brilliant.

vastly outdated wrote:

the grand inquisitor wrote:

^ We had the correct answer on the first page ^

Correct, It's just fine if you want to participate without contending.

Last in the women's 1500, 6th for men. Still decent.

You, as well as the OP, don't seem to understand either Lydiard training, how some of the different groups train, and/or physiological tenants.

the grand inquisitor wrote:

vastly outdated wrote:

Correct, It's just fine if you want to participate without contending.

Last in the women's 1500, 6th for men. Still decent.

You, as well as the OP, don't seem to understand either Lydiard training, how some of the different groups train, and/or physiological tenants.

You don't seem to understand the difference between tenant and tenet.

Nijel Amos's coach describes his training as Lydiard training. Add that to the number of successful self-described Lydiard followers of today.

Landlord of physiology wrote:

the grand inquisitor wrote:

You, as well as the OP, don't seem to understand either Lydiard training, how some of the different groups train, and/or physiological tenants.

You don't seem to understand the difference between tenant and tenet.

Touche. Well played.

Lydiard knew what worked for his runners and that was what he evangelized.

His main contributions was that he made runners think about building an aerobic base. Previously runners had primarily focused on intervals. He also preached periodization.

He formed the first jogging group and wrote the first book on jogging.

Considering he coached a small group of runners on a small island with a population of the size of Scotland he had amazing results.

Peter Snell

- 3 Olympic Golds including an 800m and 1500m double.

- Olympic record in the 800m

- 5 world records in the Mile, 800m and 880y world records in the space of 8 days.

- Still holds the World Record for 800m on grass.

- 4 x 1 mile world record.

- Retired at 25.

Murray Halberg

- Olympic gold - 1500m

Barry McGee

- Olympic Bronze, Marathon

Dick Quax

- 5000m world record

- 5000m Olympic Silver

Rod Dixon

- Olympic Bronze, 1500m

Lorraine Moller

- Olympic Bronze, Marathon

Other Lydiard followers.

Billy Mills, Joan Benoit, Meb Keflezighi, Bill Rodgers, Mary Decker, Abebe Bikila, Lasse Viren, Pekka Vasala, John Walker, Toshihiko Seko, Robert de Castella, Steve Scott, Allison Roe, Wong Young-Cho, Lee Bong-Jul, Yuko Arimori, Naoko Takahashi.

And Peter Coe won four Olympic medals with just one family member.

quite a stretch

Roe ran 85 miles/week

Good post. Of course emphasis on aerobic training precedes Lydiard. Another Arthur, Newton, was an influential "preacher" of aerobic training long before Lydiard.Lydiard's contribution was more how to find a way to balance "aerobic" and "anaerobic" training in a way that lets you peak when it matters. No new training, but just a specific emphasize on how and when to combine different kinds of training.Things like "linear periodization" were implementation details intended to help develop the right balance at the right time. For example, he later developed alternative "complex/non-linear" racing schedules designed to prolong your peak to accommodate longer racing schedules over several seasons. This might have you doing interval training (shock/gasp) for most of the year, but not in the high quantities associated with his classic "anaerobic phase".Newer methods may arrive at a "bigger and better" balance, maybe sooner, but I can't imagine today's athletes are winning with an imperfect balance, and not managing their peak. The methods may have improved, but the training goals of balance and timing the peak haven't.

Randy Oldman wrote:

Lydiard knew what worked for his runners and that was what he evangelized.

His main contributions was that he made runners think about building an aerobic base. Previously runners had primarily focused on intervals. He also preached periodization.

He formed the first jogging group and wrote the first book on jogging.

...

Lydiard's record is pretty pathetic compared to Canova. 6 WRs, 42 medals at the WCS, and 8 Olympic medals. And that's athletes he PERSONALLY COACHED, not just people who were "inspired" by him or "followed his philosophy." Saying Abebe Bikila was a Lydiard athlete is silly, for example. He was coached by Onni Niskannen.

Lydiard's philosophy is outdated and inadequate. He made important contributions to the sport but it is not 1960 anymore. You can't train top athletes with his methods today.

already fast wrote:

Looby wrote:

I had a long lunch with Snell about 25 years ago and quizzed him extensively as to his thoughts about Lydiard's method. He was absolutely emphatic that his success was due to Lydiard. He said that if he had to do it again, knowing what he knew then about physiology (he's a PhD in Physio, remember), that he would use Lydiard's method.

Snell already had speed before Lydiard helped him. That's the point.

It's still basic talent that makes champions, not their training methodology.

it's interesting that Snell actually performed terribly in true endurance events.

Actually, Snell's basic speed was no more than average compared to his competitors. The difference was that since he had a huge aerobic engine (ummmm Lydiard training?), at the end of a race he had most of his speed left. Competitors without said engine had to burn a larger portion their speed just to get to the same point in the race. Snell appeared to be "much faster", but it was an illusion- he just had much more left at the end of the race, (again, because aerobic power brought him to the same point in the race), so he appeared to be faster than competitors with even more basic speed.

fadsfasfadsf wrote:

Lydiard's record is pretty pathetic compared to Canova. 6 WRs, 42 medals at the WCS, and 8 Olympic medals. And that's athletes he PERSONALLY COACHED, not just people who were "inspired" by him or "followed his philosophy." Saying Abebe Bikila was a Lydiard athlete is silly, for example. He was coached by Onni Niskannen.

Lydiard's philosophy is outdated and inadequate. He made important contributions to the sport but it is not 1960 anymore. You can't train top athletes with his methods today.

Well then if that is your standard then I suppose Lydiard training is outdated since he can't PERSONALLY COACH athletes anymore.