Jim Ryun last quarter in Dusseldorf- From Ryun Himself. "The last 400 was 49 seconds."

The math is ruthless:

3:33.1

minus

2s (1/2 s per lap for cinders vs. 70s synthetic)

1.5s (1/2 s per lap lap for 3 laps for no drafting)

2s (really poor pacing, with a 61s first lap)

2s (over 100 degrees on the track)

=3:25.6

As for Dusseldorf, still no uncut footage for the last lap or even last 300m, but a 36 last 300m (with no competition) in a 3:38 1500m on dirt or cinders has never been equalled. If Morceli did something relatively close in a 3:34 race, but on all-weather track of the 1990s, that shows you that Ryun could have run 3:26-27.

The thing with Ruin is that he combines the what he did and what it could have done in a way the leads to stuff like this. We save Ovett, coe, moerceli El G run a ton of times over extended periods. We know what they could do and we can debate shoes and traxks.

Ryun basically peaked as a 20 year old with a poorly paces race, with crappy tracks and shoes.

Some other performance like smells 144 on grass are similar.

xczvzxcv wrote:

The math is ruthless:

3:33.1

minus

2s (1/2 s per lap for cinders vs. 70s synthetic)

1.5s (1/2 s per lap lap for 3 laps for no drafting)

2s (really poor pacing, with a 61s first lap)

2s (over 100 degrees on the track)

=3:25.6

As for Dusseldorf, still no uncut footage for the last lap or even last 300m, but a 36 last 300m (with no competition) in a 3:38 1500m on dirt or cinders has never been equalled. If Morceli did something relatively close in a 3:34 race, but on all-weather track of the 1990s, that shows you that Ryun could have run 3:26-27.

in this race, he beat keino by 4 seconds. Keino's best performance was 3:34.xx at 7,000+ altitude. What does that 3:34 convert to at sea level?

xczvzxcv wrote:

The math is ruthless:

3:33.1

minus

2s (1/2 s per lap for cinders vs. 70s synthetic)

1.5s (1/2 s per lap lap for 3 laps for no drafting)

2s (really poor pacing, with a 61s first lap)

2s (over 100 degrees on the track)

=3:25.6

Yes this math looks quite ruthless with made up numbers

Keino wasn't at his best in the 3:33.1, but then he never ran faster than the 3:34.8 at 7,000 feet under any conditions or altitude. Keino's 3:34.8 was worth among the best ever at sea level according to the NCAA converter, but usually for altitude-born and raised athletes, they don't come close to the conversion. Keino's time, however, is still not far from the best ever altitude 1500m. Ronald Kwemoi (high 3:28 pr) ran 3:30.89 at 1800m (5,905 ft) in Nairobi for a Kenyan all-comers record. Tim Cheruiyot ran 3:31.03 and Elijah Manangoi 3:32.05 in the same race. Cheruiyot has run low 3:28. The NCAA converter has 8.8 seconds for a 3:47 1500m to be equivalent to a 3:56 1500m at 7,000 feet, so for a 3:34.8, that is worth a 3:26 mid to high.

Colorado Springs at 6,000 is the closest to the Nairobi altitude, and there the 3:47 gets 6.86 seconds higher for comparable. Kwemoi's performance by that standard would be worth about 3:24 mid. Of course, Kwemoi was never able to do close to that. Maybe he was in 3:27-28 shape, though. So, if you give an altitude-trained runner just 2-3 seconds drop for 6k and 3-4 seconds for 7k altitude, then Keino's performance would have been worth 3:30. I think that 3:29-30 is about right, and of course he was paced by Jipcho and was able to draft a long way for those days.

https://www.worldathletics.org/news/report/kwemoi-kenyan-1500m-all-comers-nairobi

Made up numbers, but not overly generous numbers:

1-2 seconds per lap is the cinder track to all weather conversion given elsewhere:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2958928

If you take 3:33.1 and subtract 3.75 seconds for the 3 3/4 laps (1 sec per lap) of the cinder to all weather track, you already get 3:29.1.

If you subtract 2s per lap, you get 3:33.1-:07.5, you get 3:25.6.

My estimate for the track was conservative at 1/2 s per lap.

The study in this article has 1 s/lap for drafting, which would be about 3 seconds advantage had he drafted the first three laps.

www.runnersworld.com

If he did actually draft the first lap, then led the last three in 2:46 or 2:47, as I believe was the case for this race (but I might be confusing it with one of the 3:51s he ran), then he would expect nowadays to get two laps of drafting or 2s, which again was more than I said. However, in this race, he was actually drafting off of Keino for quite a bit. In one of the other wr's he wasn't drafting.

From an old letsrun thread, it was 97 degrees and his splits were very much uneven and he would have gained from a much quicker first 300m, as he closed the race in 2:46.6 1200m.

So, 3:33.1-4 s for the track and then 3:29.1-2 seconds for heat and 1 second for wasting time with the slow first 300m gets you 3:26.1.

Should have written sooner

14 years ago 04/02/2007 3:20pm CDT re: mr. common sense

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Last 1200 meters 2:46.6.

Last 800 meters 1:51.3

Last 400 meters 53.5

First 300 in 46.5 - very slow. Conditions hot - 97 degree air temperature and 60's Los Angeles smog. Awful to run in. Track chewed up from 2 days of competition. Ryun was a top talent who came along before before proper training methods had been solidified. People blame Timmons for not training him correctly, but the fact is that not too many people knew what to do back then. For what it's worth, Lydiard said back in 2000 that if he'd have coached Ryun, Ryun would still have the 1500 and mile records, so great was his talent. I don't know about that, but some of what Ryun did always made me believe he could have run 3:46 in the mile on dirt 40 years ago.

Good question is how short these cinder tracks were.

Everyone is adjusting for cinder, but what if these tracks were short?

Unfortunately, yes.

Keino > Ryun, and not all that close-.

You know what I actually find the most convincing data to quantify the difference between cinders & all weather? Ironically it's something you wrote, which I know sounds crazy.

So that's:

- 3 second WR improvement at 3k

- 4 second WR improvement at 5k

- 10 second WR improvement at 10k

That looks an awful lot like 1 second per kilometer, so I'll even grant you the 1.5 seconds for Ryun at 1500 meters. But every time I see this argument the numbers are all over the place, from 0.5 seconds per lap to 2 seconds depending on who you ask.

Show me the data. Show me either the same times for the guys who ran on both surfaces, or the WR progressions by surface. Interestingly, here are Ryun's mile times on both surfaces:

So interestingly that 1.5 second difference appears again in his HS senior year.

Anyway, I don't feel like arguing the other times you made up since I've read a million of these ventolin threads over the years but was compelled to chime in on the surface debate for some reason. Here are the threads from which I've taken the quotes:

Vasalalene wrote:

Exactly. "When it counted" Pekka Vasala man-handled Keino. Vasala is hardly a lsgend. Ryun had a lopsided won loss record against Keino. The only way Keino could beat him is 7500' altitude. EOT.

Big bias and subjective comment.

You never figured that there are 8 years of difference of age?

Armstronglivs wrote:

...all his records have been surpassed...

55 years later, Ryun still has the AJR in the 1500/mile... shoes and tracks be damned.

xczvzxcv wrote:

The math is ruthless:

3:33.1

minus

2s (1/2 s per lap for cinders vs. 70s synthetic)

1.5s (1/2 s per lap lap for 3 laps for no drafting)

2s (really poor pacing, with a 61s first lap)

2s (over 100 degrees on the track)

=3:25.6

As for Dusseldorf, still no uncut footage for the last lap or even last 300m, but a 36 last 300m (with no competition) in a 3:38 1500m on dirt or cinders has never been equalled. If Morceli did something relatively close in a 3:34 race, but on all-weather track of the 1990s, that shows you that Ryun could have run 3:26-27.

There are some real fantasists on this thread.

I set the 4 seconds as a 4 lap drop mistakenly then forget to readjust from 3:29.1 to 3:29.35 for 3.75 seconds.

Your posts belie your handle. It is anything but genteel to describe your interlocutor's writing as "blah blah blah." Consensus has cinder to all weather at anywhere from 1/2 s to 2 s per lap. Consensus has drafting worth 1/2s to 1 s for the 1500m to mile at paces in the range we're discussing. The only thing you have offered is a request for data.

I think Herb Elliott is big reason why back in 1966/67 Jim became a massive legend. Elliott's impact on the world of track and field was amazing. This 20 yr old, who'd never run outside of Australasia until the summer of 1958 hit Europe like the perfect storm. Winning titles and smashing records; indeed, Jungwirth's 1500m record from 1957 had astonished the athletic world, but Herb comes a long and knocks 2 secs of it. Unreal.

Many thought that Eliiott's 1500m Rome time would last decades, that Herb was a once in a lifetime talent but then along comes Jim. And, he was even younger than Herb, and he proceeded to smash Herb's "unbeatable" 1500m time to pieces.

No wonder athletics fans were in awe of Jim.

And, has been said, Ryun's lack of medals is down to the Olympic committees stupid decision to hold the games at altitude, and the fall in 1972. And again, as has been said, Elliott and Snell would never have beaten Keino in Mexico.

Of course, Jim, in 1967, even looked great running. Looked like he could handle anything thrown at him...and he could.

It's interesting to surmise how the 1968 1500m final would have panned out at sea level. True Jim wasn't as good as 1967, but what tactics do we think that Keino would have employed.

Interestingly, Kip Keino enjoyed a lot more success than Jim, but I feel that Jim was undoubtedly the more talented and greater runner.

The Maester wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

...all his records have been surpassed...

55 years later, Ryun still has the AJR in the 1500/mile... shoes and tracks be damned.

AJR? So what. American junior records mean nothing outside American junior competition. It's his world records that are the international measure - and they are now surpassed by journeymen most days of the week.

If Ryun was to be judged solely by his times he is well and truly consigned to the past. His achievements have to be measured against his era. It is that which makes them outstanding.

think first wrote:

Good question is how short these cinder tracks were.

Everyone is adjusting for cinder, but what if these tracks were short?

These were 440y tracks.

-1.5% ....

mile 3:51.1 = 3:47.63 ~ 3:29.42 (1500m)

1500m 3:33.1 = 3:29.90 ~ 3:46.70 (1 mile).

~ = +/- 8%

https://youtu.be/8COaMKbNrX0

zxcvzxcv wrote:

The only thing you have offered is a request for data.

No I provided data. Ryun ran 3:56.8 against Snell on cinders then a few weeks later ran 3:55.3 against Snell on synthetic track. Same competition. Same general time period. 1.5 second improvement. So get out of here with your general consensus range that goes up to 2 seconds per lap. I don't care what people "think" about this. The proof is in the times.

I also used your own demonstration of Rono improving the world records at 3k, 5k, and 10k as further data to support 1 second per kilo.

And actually I will apologize for saying blah blah blah. I've found your posts infuriating over the years using your different handles (ventolin, eldrick?, etc) but you genuinely believe them and at least make an effort to support your opinions. You're just a guy behind a computer like me. I didn't need to be rude. Sorry.