Were Cram/Coe/Ovett Doping?

Hold on, that 1984 Olympic Final... we see Makloufi do the same thing and we crucify him. If Coe was around today, he would be witch-hunted as a doper.

For the number of times "unfounded accusation" is used, you'd think posters would know what it means. Saying Coe was born in Panama and has a dog fighthing pit in Santa Fe is unfounded.

Saying his Olympic team doctor doped athletes is not unfounded when recorded conversations of his team doctor reveal him saying how he doped athletes.

Saying Coe doped is not unfounded when the culture of elite running is to dope, his own performances are ahead of dopers, performances of 80-84 (and beyond that, just referring to canova's statement) have been attributed to blood doping, he has shown moral fallibility, he ignores contemporary doping issues, his own medical history/toxoplasmosis is consistant with doping, his Olympic countrymen were doping, and his Olympic team doctor admits to doping athletes... No. The accusation is not unfounded.

If you want to say the accusation is wrong, back up your claim. To say it is unfounded, though, is so plainly not true, nothing else can be said.

Clerk wrote:

Conava's comment is a genral comment about every winner in '80-'84:

"So, what happened after this? In ’85 was outlawed doping, and nobody used—finished…From ‘80-84, was the Italian Conconi, that won using this system. "

That's not what he said at all. Can't you read?

He is talking about the Italian distance runners and says that 2 of them tried it and that Conconi used blood doping between 80 and 84. No where does it mention Coe with regards to Conconi and nowhere does it say that "every winner in 80 - 84" used doping or had any connection with Conconi.

You are pedalling a lie.

The other thing you clearly are not aware of is that it was Coe's research with Colin Moynihan, the Government's Sports Minister, on doping in sport for the Sports Council, that put forward a paper to the IAAF calling for a ban of blood doping at the end of 1984. They took his advice and it was outlawed from 1985. Not only has he always been a vociferous opponent of drug use, calling for life bans, but he was instrumental in getting blood doping outlawed. These are not the actions of someone who was doping himself and in the middle of his career.

Clerk wrote:

Saying his Olympic team doctor doped athletes is not unfounded when recorded conversations of his team doctor reveal him saying how he doped athletes.

Again, you are elaborating and changing the facts. In the Panorama programme, McMasters stated that the doctor, who was part of the British Olympic team, admitted to supplying Alan Wells drugs. He at no point admitted or claimed that the whole British team was being supplied drugs.

Marion Jones was part of the US team, and she was being supplied drugs along with others on the team. Does that mean that the US middle or distance athletes were doping?

Wels Wizard wrote:

Clerk wrote:

Saying his Olympic team doctor doped athletes is not unfounded when recorded conversations of his team doctor reveal him saying how he doped athletes.

Again, you are elaborating and changing the facts. In the Panorama programme, McMasters stated that the doctor, who was part of the British Olympic team, admitted to supplying Alan Wells drugs. He at no point admitted or claimed that the whole British team was being supplied drugs.

Marion Jones was part of the US team, and she was being supplied drugs along with others on the team. Does that mean that the US middle or distance athletes were doping?

Still not unfounded to think a doctor supplying one runner drugs may be supplying another runner on the same team. But I still think Coe was clean

re Welsh Wizard: First I want to say thanks for engaging in an actual conversation. No sarcasm. It's refreshing.

While I think Coe doped, you are right in implying that there is no direct evidence. The rumor about him being a client of Conconi is, as of now, actually an unfounded accusation.

But my post is about the suspicion. What I listed is less a list of evidence against Coe, but reasons to be suspicious and have a conversation (I was replying to the "unfounded accusation" comment.

In that view, Canova's comment isn't about Coe blood doping, but again, the culture of the sport. It was normal, and in my mind likely, that the grandfather of today's british Marginal Gains athletes would have included it. I have not heard of Dr. Moynihan's blood transfusion efforts, and could not find any detailed information, besides research and 1985 news articles about the ban, (let alone Coe's advocacy of it). If you have a link, please share.

I have no problem with disagreeing what is casting a shadow, but I do have a problem with people denying any shadow at all. Again, thanks for actually discussing the situation.

Wels Wizard wrote:

Marion Jones was part of the US team, and she was being supplied drugs along with others on the team. Does that mean that the US middle or distance athletes were doping?

No, but they were anyway.

Bramaterra wrote:

Hold on, that 1984 Olympic Final... we see Makloufi do the same thing and we crucify him. If Coe was around today, he would be witch-hunted as a doper.

Coe was the reigning gold medalist and had plenty of performances to back that up; Makloufi came out of nowhere. Doy.

Bramaterra wrote:

Hold on, that 1984 Olympic Final... we see Makloufi do the same thing and we crucify him. If Coe was around today, he would be witch-hunted as a doper.

Not the same. Watch the rounds and the final of both and get back to us.

. . . oh and Coe had set multiple world records before 1984 so it is not like his performance was unexpected.

it was unexpected give hi performance in the trial 6 weeks before

pop_pop! wrote:

Coe long rumored to be a Ferrari/Conconi Epo customer.

Renato Canova states Coe was a Ferrari customer in a runner's world article and then bizarrly claims Epo not effective.

BTW, Epo not illegal at the time as there were no tests. IOC logic dictates that isn't doping.

Recombinant EPO did not exist until Coe was on the verge of retirement and running awful times.

You may not have notice this, but it is hard to use a product that does not exist.

cmon wrote:

Coe's dad was a doctor... 'Nuff said

Coe's father was a design engineer at a famous cutlery manufacturer. 'Nuff said.

Richard Cheese wrote:

pop_pop! wrote:

Coe long rumored to be a Ferrari/Conconi Epo customer.

Renato Canova states Coe was a Ferrari customer in a runner's world article and then bizarrly claims Epo not effective.

BTW, Epo not illegal at the time as there were no tests. IOC logic dictates that isn't doping.

EPO didn't exist then, dummy.

Coe's biomechanics and form were about as close to perfection as it's possible to get. He was also ahead of the curve in terms of strength and flexibility through flex training. Just a superbly gifted runner, one of the most talented to lace up spikes in any era.

He also had the same coach for his entire career and could consequently take a long term approach to his development. It´s not like in the US, where you have a HS coach looking for short term success, the a college coach with the same approach and then a pro coach.

Elder of Zion wrote:

Wels Wizard wrote:

Marion Jones was part of the US team, and she was being supplied drugs along with others on the team. Does that mean that the US middle or distance athletes were doping?

No, but they were anyway.

You're not in a position to know.

apart from running fast what grounds has anyone for even suspecting they were? And if you go off fast times as your main reason to suspect them, were Steve Scott & Sydney Maree doping? Or John Walker? Or Eamon Coghlan? Or any other runner from their era who ran fast?

Ovett no.

Coe and Cram yes.

mark b wrote:

apart from running fast what grounds has anyone for even suspecting they were? And if you go off fast times as your main reason to suspect them, were Steve Scott & Sydney Maree doping? Or John Walker? Or Eamon Coghlan? Or any other runner from their era who ran fast?

I think they were clean but just to play the devil's advocate, I think the most suspicious thing is no one has been able to match their times since

It seems

Richard Cheese wrote:

Coe was the reigning gold medalist and had plenty of performances to back that up; Makloufi came out of nowhere. Doy.

Like Billy Mills

In the case of Coe and Ovett, they both had years of hard, serious training before they set any sort of records. OK, Ovett won a silver medal at the European champs in 1974 but it wasn't until 1977 that he made any real mark at 1500/mile. Cram was very fast as a 16/17 year old but, again, it was 3-4 years later before he made a mark in world class competition. None of these three came from nowhere to set records/win titles.

Ovett states in his autobiography that he is scared of needles and rarely sought medical advice even for quite serious injuries until it was clear that the thing wasn't going to clear up itself. Of course, if you were suspicious/cynical you would say "well he would say something like that wouldn't he?" ...

There's no answer to these allegations. If you want to believe they doped you can find stuff to convince you that they did. But to convince anyone else you have to come up with something better than the fact that they ran pretty quickly!!