Were Cram/Coe/Ovett Doping?

pop_pop! wrote:

Coe long rumored to be a Ferrari/Conconi Epo customer.

Renato Canova states Coe was a Ferrari customer in a runner's world article and then bizarrly claims Epo not effective.

BTW, Epo not illegal at the time as there were no tests. IOC logic dictates that isn't doping.

EPO didn't exist then, dummy.

Coe's biomechanics and form were about as close to perfection as it's possible to get. He was also ahead of the curve in terms of strength and flexibility through flex training. Just a superbly gifted runner, one of the most talented to lace up spikes in any era.

...i meant x training.

Hughcfhgthf wrote:

Ovett was never that fast.

His world records seemed fast at the time.

Richard Cheese wrote:

...i meant x training.

Sorry if this is obvious, but what is x training?

cross training.

This is why I'm certain Coe was a total doper (liar, hypocrite, drug apologist):

"Coe says Russia must not be banned over doping "http://sports.yahoo.com/news/coe-says-russia-must-not-banned-over-doping-003012817--spt.html

"‘Inaccurate Perception’ Of Jamaica's Testing Of Athletes - Coe"

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/sports/20150224/%E2%80%98inaccurate-perception%E2%80%99-jamaicas-testing-athletes-coe

And of course, there's Coe's good friend Alberto Salazar.

Regardless of how you feel about Paula Radcliffe, can anyone imagine Paula. Allyson Felix, Geena Gall, Travis Tygart or anyone who stands up for #cleansport saying something like that? I can't imagine ANYONE who was actually clean supporting known dopers like that--not just keeping quiet but openly defending doping programs in the media.

And of course, there's more to it. A high percentage of Europeans particularly are exposed to toxoplasmosis, but their immune system fights it off--unless your immune system is weakened from steroid use.

Claiming steroids are not a PED of choice for milers shows lack of knowledge of biochemistry. Anabolic steroids are dehydrolyzed by your body into testosterone: That's why steroid takers don't test positive for steroids; They test positive for testosterone. And I think you know of some people taking testosterone with distance results that are "pretty good."

In 1976 (PEDs were banned in the Olympics in 1967), British pentathlete Mary Peters wrote in her book, ""A medical research team in the United States attempted to set up extensive research into the effects of steroids on weightlifters and throwers, only to discover that there were so few who weren't taking them that they couldn't establish any worthwhile comparisons." This was the era where Coe, Cram, and Ovett basically came out of nowhere to rewrite the record books. And about the time that Ben Johnson tested positive, they all disappeared. And unlike places like the USA, New Zealand, and Australia, British born milers have never run that fast since there have been drug tests.

For the record clinical trials of EPO began in 1985, but there is indeed a meta-analysis of published research that shows it doesn't work in high level athletes (only).

I have no doubt about Coe. And for the rest during "the golden age of milers", I think the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong.

Coe in full flight was something to behold.

coed wrote:

I think Coe's statements in regards to Salazar displays where he truly stands on the doping talk.

Strong statements until it hits close to home, then you see his true colors.

Would not be surprised if Coe was doping.

Ovett and Cram I'd be more surprised by.

Which highlights the fact you know nothing about that era of British athletics.

Andy Norman, who was the head honcho of UK athletics and probably the most influential figure on the European circuit, was a close confidant and agent to Steve Ovett. As such, Ovett remained the only elite British athlete who was exempt from having to run a set quota of domestic fixtures in order to gain privileges to run at the big meets like Oslo, Zurich etc.

There have been several accusations from various sources that Norman, who was responsible for carrying out drug testing at his meets, covered up some positive tests and of being generally pretty corrupt.

If Coe had been doping, Norman would have known. As such, the idea that he would protect or cover up for his mate Steve Ovett's arch rival (Coe) is about as far-fetched as it gets. Norman is even believed to be responsible for getting dud pacers for Coe, who then ran a perfect pace for Ovett in other races.

There is no way Norman wouldn't have busted Coe if he was on anything. In fact the one athlete who could have gotten away with it was Ovett himself. Norman was a huge influence on Ovett, who himself accused Norman of financial irregularities some years later, after they had a massive fall out around 1985.

Super Miler wrote:

Both Cram and Ovett were more muscular, but I have no reason to believe either of them were on drugs either.

Ovett doesn't look that much more muscular?

Yeah, you and 'pop pop' were spewing the same anti Coe message on this thread earlier in the week,

board=1&id=6604310&thread=6603929#6604310

Wouldn't be surprised if most of those on that thread are one and the same person. And who else on here has a persistent anti Coe biased?

As I wrote on there, Coe merely states that we should support Farah's decision to stick with Salazar. He says that if Farah is happy with Salazar's rebuttal, which is a very detailed and lengthy one, then we have to respect that decision, until any further evidence emerges from the accusers.

I don't think Farah is clean, but Coe is a diplomat and politician. He's not going to turn round and say that Salazar is guilty and Mo should run a mile without there being proof of wrong doing. But neither does he say Salazar is innocent and so is Mo, and that all accusations are wrong. Something which you seem to be implying is the case.

Coe's response is exactly what anyone would expect in his position.

With regards to Russia, he rightly says that banning an entire nation based on a group of athletes would only alienate the young athletes there. There have certainly been enough US athletes caught doping over the years and we know that there was an official cover up and collusion to protect US athletes from doping prior to the LA Olympics. Where were the calls for banning the USA from international competition?

With regards to Jamaica, all Coe has said is that people are under the misconception that Jamaican athletes haven't been tested. He says that they certainly have by the IAAF, citing 12 tests of Bolt prior to the London Olympics. He goes on to say that small federations need to seek help and that the IAAF will help with the testing process. Anyone with any sense will read that as to mean that Jamaicans are tested, have been tested, and that now the Jamaican authorities are being supported by the IAAF to carry out more rigorous domestic and OOC testing than they used to have. Which is exactly the case. He doesn't claim that Jamaicans are all clean or that the testing of their athletes has been the same as most other nations in recent years.

He's running for the Presidency of the IAAF. Do you really think he's going to say that the Jamaicans aren't tested, haven't been tested and are all guilty of doping? The fact that several Jamaicans have been tested positive in recent years, proves that they are now being tested at home as regularly as other countries, and that the actions of the IAAF is working.

Coe also believes that it is unfair that some nations' testing is carried out more vigorously than others, and has called for an independent body to carry out all testing of all athletes from all nations, if he is elected President.

This whole thread reeks of anti Coe propaganda.

118 118 wrote:

There have been several accusations from various sources that Norman, who was responsible for carrying out drug testing at his meets, covered up some positive tests and of being generally pretty corrupt.

Any links/proof to back this up? I'm not doubting you, just curious to dig a little more in to this

Now a Coach wrote:

Ovett doesn't look that much more muscular?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/02/17/article-1251809-0857B937000005DC-218_233x423.jpg

Ovett had the muscle naturally. As a teenager he was a national standard 400 runner. Coe was a skinny 3000/xc runner, and probably later to mature physically, and spent his first two years in college lifting weights to get strong.

Obviously, two guys able to break world records would end up with similar levels of leg strength but I'd give Coe the edge, given his 400 relay leg in 45.5.

There is a lot in Pat Butcher's book, "The Perfect Distance", and a lot came out in the British press years ago, when Norman was implicated as having a role in the suicide of one of Britain's top athletic journalists, Cliff Temple.

Temple was looking into Norman's dodgy dealings, and Norman started a campaign of bullying against him, which had a tragic outcome.

Ovett later accused Norman of offering to pay him money for running in the UK trials, and lying to him that Coe was being paid to run the same race too. This was in 1989. Coe wasn't paid, Ovett was and felt guilty about it, so came clean on National tv and broke down in tears.

There are lots of people in UK athletics who could tell you plenty about Andy Norman.

Coe did a lot of weight work, when it was unusual for distance runners (unusual even for basketball players until Karl Malone's heyday), and George Gandy was the guy at Loughborough who developed what would become his regimen. Whether George Gandy is anything more than ahead of his time, I do not know, but that would be where to look, I'd imagine. At any rate, if he cheated, it was likely steroids, common in that era in the weight room, and blood doping. The latter is suspected because it's easier to get toxoplasmosis that way than through incidental contact with kitty litter. I'd like to think all those guys were clean.

Father and son Coe hid and lied about everything. I don't doubt a second Seb was doped. His later actions haven't made me think otherwise.

Steroids are used to loose weight also. re: above posters.

...

The British Olympic Team Doctor for Moscow and LA admitted to doping athletes.

...

Conava's comment is a genral comment about every winner in '80-'84:

"So, what happened after this? In ’85 was outlawed doping, and nobody used—finished…From ‘80-84, was the Italian Conconi, that won using this system. "

That's one way people infer Coe's Blood Doping. People also infer from his hemological health issues that he didn't always get the blood doping done right.

...

There is no evidence Coe has ever taken a moral stand against doping in his practice in sports administration and management.

In fact, as the head of the Ethics commission for FIFA, he is liable for what transpired, as the case against FIFA emerges.

More, he has shown to side with his own business interests against the sport in his managment of the Cyrstal Palace rennovation.

He is not a moral role model.

...

Defenders of Coe can say "there is no evidence" as much as they want. Each point can be defended, but the sum, the whole argument pieced together from many different sources cannot be explained away by isolated explanations.

Clerk wrote:

The British Olympic Team Doctor for Moscow and LA admitted to doping athletes.

.

Link? Just curious to look into this more

The BBC has obtained some of the transcripts of those conversations, the full extent of which has never been broadcast before.

In one excerpt, Dr Ledingham - who died in 1998 - gave McMaster his reasons for doping athletes.

He said: "What I was doing it for was that I knew bloody well that the bloke standing next to you on the blocks was taking the stuff."

He was then asked if Allan Wells was also getting his steroids, or "stuff" from him.

Mark Daly has this exclusive report on doping claims

He said: "He [Wells] was taking stuff from all over the place, not just from me … Everybody knew Wells took drugs."

Dr Ledingham said he would never speak on the record about Wells, or any of the other …"half a dozen or so I've known to have taken things".

....11 wrote:

Clerk wrote:

The British Olympic Team Doctor for Moscow and LA admitted to doping athletes.

.

Link? Just curious to look into this more

Allegation by Drew McMaster. No other sources as far as I know.