Runners, do we still hate Priuses (aka Prii)?

39% of electricity in the US is produced by burning coal. In some parts of the nation, your EV is running on approx. 80% coal.

science is not your friend wrote:

How can an electric motor produce more carbon emissions than a hydrocarbon engine?

I am an engineer and I'd like to hear a technical explanation and not something you heard a fat blowhard behind a golden microphone say.

Okay, let's consult the fat blowharded EPA and EIA website.

69% of electricity on the grid in the US is produced by fossil fuels.

In producing 25,484 TWh we emitted 5287 Mtoe of carbon.

Marketing fiend Elon Musk's Tesla battery holds 54 kWh for a range of 244 miles.

Based on the rate above, this causes 54 kWh / 25484 TWh * 5287 Mtoe = .011 toe to be emitted

0.011 tons of oil would be about 0.084 barrels, which would produce about 14.8 gallons of gas.

244 miles / 14.8 gallons equivalent = 17 miles a gallon

17 miles a gallon

Oh, and Elon Musk is running on 4+ billion dollars of government subsidies, so we all helped pay for your 17 mpg Tesla.

Go green!

Your math is wrong and Musk has paid the government back.

Oh so we are talking about Tesla cars now?

I thought you were talking about a Prius since you said a Prius emits more carbon emissions on electric mode than a hydrocarbon engine that gets 25mpg. I guess you decided not to pursue or defend that statement.

Now onto your deflection...

With respect to the issue of energizing batteries using the electric grid, I am surprised that you did not mention that coal and natural power plants are much more efficient and use more more readily available and therefore less expensive sources of hyrdocarbons.

While I am impressed that you rely on numbers from a government website (a group which you likely claim is notoriously unreliable and biased to begin with) and quote random statistics using some unusual methodology, let me propose some simple principles using actual science and engineering:

- Gas-fired turbine steam generators in power plants can reach efficiencies of 40 percent or more — compared to a Carnot Limit, depending on the exact heat differences in such plants, of about 51 percent.

- Today’s car engines have efficiencies of 20 percent or less, compared to their Carnot Limit of 37 percent.

Assuming that the power grid is able to transmit electrical energy at a reasonable efficiency, power plants have more than double the efficiency of typical car engines and can therefore produce much more energy with less fuel and outputting significantly less emissions (the emission treatments systems at powerplants are miles ahead of your typical cat systems). Diesel fairs better in the efficiency department, but now you are talking about higher particulates and much lower efficiencies than centralized turbines.

Basic engineering principles suggest going with the more efficient power source with cheaper, more abundant, and cleaner combustion fuels sent out and stored using the lowest-entropy form of energy (electricity). Electric motors are highly efficient and even more so at low speeds (high torque) which is where combustion engines are the least efficient. The technology for electrical grids and batteries will only continue to progress whereas we have reached near max efficiency for affordable individual engines.

That said, I built a 67' Ford Galaxy fastback for my dad with a blueprinted 390 big block and it got maybe 8 miles to the gallon on a good day. THAT is a freakin car. But don't tell me that you know what the hell you are talking about when it comes to a Prius or the future of transportation in general.

Tommy Edison wrote:

39% of electricity in the US is produced by burning coal. In some parts of the nation, your EV is running on approx. 80% coal.

^^^ I guess some people think electricity just grows for free out of the ground, or gets harvested from thunderstorms or something.

I do believe you asked about ELECTRIC cars, not the Prius. The Tesla is easier to calculate.

Irrelevant. All we care about is which one emits more carbon in the end, right? How many miles results in how much CO2.

There's a missing step in your analysis: the BATTERY. Have you looked at the efficiency numbers? It ain't pretty last I checked.

The FUTURE of electric vehicles looks fine to me.

It's the PRESENT that snobby liberals don't get.

science is not your friend wrote:

Oh so we are talking about Tesla cars now?

You asked about an electric motor. And you were pwnd.

Liberalism = a mental disorder wrote:

The Prius is an all-around terrible car. Driving on electric produces more carbon emissions than a 25 mpg car.

Ahem...

I asked about an electric motor's carbon emissions and was met with a response about a car companys debt to the government and some random statistics. Don't know why he felt the need to ignore his Prius comment and talk about a different car altogether.

If that is pwned in your book, then that is OK with me.

You brought up the Prius and failed to explain how it makes more carbon emissions in electric mode than a hydrocarbon engine.

How do you not understand that centralized turbines running on natural gas and coal are much more efficient therefore needing to burn half as much fuel and much cleaner due to the sophisticated treatment systems in place? That means FEWER emissions than a typical 4 banger in traffic.

Plus you're not even accounting for the emissions from transporting liquid fuel from the middle east processing it here and then driving it in semi trucks everywhere to drive millions of relatively inefficient engines. A

Tell me what the efficiency of a battery is. Is it lower than the max carnot efficiency of your average combustion engine? Electric motors used in these car have max efficiency at low speed which is where regular engines suck.

Oh and yes fall back on the trusty red herring that is the snobby liberal angle. How did you gather that I am liberal from my discussion of engineering principles? Just because you are wrong does not mean I am a liberal.

your average Prius hybrid makes electricity by burning fuel in a traditional hydrocarbon engine.

it doesn't make any admissions in electric only mode.

then it also complements the combustion engine at the transition from low rpm too high rpm so that it makes the overall system more efficient and produces less emissions.

They look stupid though

Bad Wigins wrote:

Tommy Edison wrote:

39% of electricity in the US is produced by burning coal. In some parts of the nation, your EV is running on approx. 80% coal.

^^^ I guess some people think electricity just grows for free out of the ground, or gets harvested from thunderstorms or something.

well technically the vast majority of gasoline is made from oil which is decomposed biomass so it does kind of come from trees.

But seriously, the vast majority of fossil fuels used in America are coal and natural gas. The latter is growing very quickly. These are fuels that are burnt in very large turbines which run at very high efficiency compared to your traditional engine.

compare the source of most liquid fuels used on the roads now. They come out of the Middle East, have to be transported across the ocean, often processing plants far away from the final consumer purchasepoint. Then large trucks need to transport the fuel.

The whole electric argument is bolstered by the possibility of increasing energy production with reduced hydrocarbon use through wind or nuclear or solar.

So no, fuel doesn't grow on trees, it comes out of the desert in the Middle East or in our regional economy.

Liberalism = a mental disorder wrote:

0.011 tons of oil would be about 0.084 barrels, which would produce about 14.8 gallons of gas.

Go green!

0.084 barrels = 3.5 gallons. Even if all of it is converted to gas (it isn't), we get 70 MPG equivalent.

No, MOST of our oil comes from the US and Canada.

12.9% comes from the Middle East.

12.9% isn't most.

I said the Prius is a terrible car. No one commented on that. Let's hope it doesn't snow where you live if you drive one. That is tangential to the discussion about the pollution caused by driving on electric.

Liberalism = a mental disorder wrote:

No, MOST of our oil comes from the US and Canada.

12.9% comes from the Middle East.

12.9% isn't most.

I said the Prius is a terrible car. No one commented on that. Let's hope it doesn't snow where you live if you drive one. That is tangential to the discussion about the pollution caused by driving on electric.

Well that's interesting, I thought that about half of our imports came from opec countries. So I learned something new today. Even 13 percent is too high in my opinion, the more reliant we are on outside sources, the worse off we are. That's why I think natural gas and centralized turbines are the way to go. The US is booming in lng right now.

I would not buy a Prius. my parents drive one, and it works for their needs. They rarely have to buy gas for it. the fact that I don't like it is just a subjective opinion, not much different from what most Liberal Arts degrees put out. I'm an engineer. So that's why I commented on that.

Liberalism = a mental disorder wrote:

No, MOST of our oil comes from the US and Canada.

12.9% comes from the Middle East.

12.9% isn't most.

I said the Prius is a terrible car. No one commented on that. Let's hope it doesn't snow where you live if you drive one. That is tangential to the discussion about the pollution caused by driving on electric.

Who said MOST??? We need ALL the oil!!!

When I'm elected President of the USA, my first act will be to ban all Prius's.

Liberalism = a mental disorder wrote:

I said the Prius is a terrible car. No one commented on that. Let's hope it doesn't snow where you live if you drive one. That is tangential to the discussion about the pollution caused by driving on electric.

We have one in our stable of cars. Here is the scoop.

Pros:

Amazing fuel economy. We get 52-56 per the computer depending on season.

Surprisingly roomy backseat and storage.

Reliability is unquestioned.

Cons:

Radio controls are bizarre esp the steering wheel ones. Our Dodge is fantastic in comparison.

Toyota Entune is not a great interface imo. Dodge, Does, better imo.

Volume changes drastically from FM to Sirius. Does not happen in our other cars.

Backup camera is poor. Again our Dodge is way better.

Really not good in any snow.

All kinds of tech but no auto headlights...major irritant for me.

Great rig if you have a long commute and gas costs are a problem. It's truly amazing how far it goes.

Stop pedalling your liberal brainwashing!!!