EPO shots in Kenyan backroom: $100

webby wrote:

I'm not one who claims to know how rampant doping is, but you are wrong about the cost of epo. It was once about $6000/year in the US, retail, for a typical 3x week dialysis patient injection.

But Amgen patents expired a long time ago in Europe. And Kenyan pharmacies don't require US hospital overhead rates and profits. So now you're talking $100/month rather than $100/shot perhaps.

There's really no financial barrier for coaches and agents to make a $500 investment in a promising athlete to test 5-month returns. Not hard to work out very positive ROI.

And here's a possible example of that, virtually unknown 22 year old Silas Kipkemboi Limo won Gold Coast Australia Marathon July 2014 in 2:09:14 picked up approx. $US30,000, his only other IAAF recorded result at that time Singapore Half 1:01:26 Sept 2014.

The agencies cover the costs, spend money to make money.

...and someone like him wouldn't exactly be high on the list for random out of competition testing, he's just one of hundreds.

GCM wrote:

...and someone like him wouldn't exactly be high on the list for random out of competition testing, he's just one of hundreds.

He is not in IAAFs registered testing pool, which means he isn't in their wherabouts system. They'd have a hell of a time finding him for an out-of-competition test.

WTF???????? wrote:

Jeff old pal I think you need to brush up on your comprehension skills or control the images your imagination is conjuring up.

Enlighten me.

Well this thread was about obtaining EPO in Kenyan back rooms without a prescription, not all that other stuff. But since you asked what I honestly believe, let me explain the many sources of my doubts:- "massive" is a vague word, that can mean different things to different people (as is "rampant" and "widespread")- Kenya might have a massive doping problem. I only claim we have not seen evidence that suggests it has "massively" infiltrated at the top. Documentaries with journalists posing as athletes who can score EPO is not evidence that real athletes are doing the same thing -- just that it's possible that real athletes could be doing the same thing. We are constructing plausible "what if" scenarios, rather than any real investigation. Likewise, accusations, or suspensions, of foreign agencies without demonstrating any cause or basis, is not evidence.- the increase in doping positives looks like something changed recently, in the last few years, not the last few decades.- The recent increase in doping positives, and the (lack of) response from AK, indeed show that Kenya has doping and doping control issues. I would not use the words "massive", or "rampant", or "widespread" as they can convey different meanings to different people, based on their own mindset.- Contrary to popular belief, Kenya has out of competition doping control.When evidence comes out showing a stronger link between doping in Kenya, and the top athletes and their agents, I will change my mind to factor in what I think the new evidence shows. I don't need to decide today, once and for all, what the truth must be, only to never change my opinion when new facts come to light.Funny you mention EPO not working for Kenyans. Putting aside arguments about smaller marginal gains, I believe it doesn't work for top Kenyans, because it hasn't worked for any top national class athlete of any nation:- the statistical evidence, or even anecdotal, for national class athletes that EPO works for running events from steeple, and up, is sparse, if not non-existent. If you look outside East Africa, at the rest of the world, you see that most every nation struggles to surpass the pre-EPO marks set by an earlier generation. Notable exceptions tend to be African imports. If EPO worked for every nation's national class athletes, I would expect to see more statistical evidence of improvements in time, and national or area records. The obvious conclusion to draw is that 1) the rest of the world did not take EPO (curious since this was the undetectable EPO-era when their cycling compatriots were out of control), or that 2) EPO doesn't work for any top athlete, or 3) both.This makes me wonder why anyone thinks EPO could even be a plausible explanation, let alone the only explanation, for top Kenyans (and Ethiopian and other East African) major improvements for events from steeple to the marathon. There is no real precedent or corroboration in the rest of the world. Therefore we have to extrapolate from evidence obtained in controlled studies (e.g. on volunteers running 3K in 11:00 lasting for six to twelve weeks), or borrow from the experience of cycling (where a 3 week cycling event is quite different from a one shot running event, and the cyclists also took steroids, testosterone, HGH, and blood transfusions, under the strict control of an expert doping doctor).Independently, I'm not convinced that EPO, RBC boosting, or blood transfusions can help in the marathon, since it is an event with a slower pace that would seem to be not limited by oxygen delivery or utilisation, but rather other factors like heat accumulation or glycogen depletion, or muscle damage.

trollism wrote:

Ok, so Kenyans are now getting busted all over the shop.

Every decent Kenyan has a European agent/doctor/manager shadowing them.

EPO is easy to get hold of in Kenya.

Kenya doesn't do any in house testing.

Do you still honestly believe that 'Kenya has a massive doping problem' is a crazy conspiracy theory? You're barking mad if you can't accept they don't.

At least play the 'Kenyans don't benefit from EPO like evil white people do' card. It's probably more credible than Kenyans don't dope.

rekrunner wrote:

Independently, I'm not convinced that EPO, RBC boosting, or blood transfusions can help in the marathon, since it is an event with a slower pace that would seem to be not limited by oxygen delivery or utilisation, but rather other factors like heat accumulation or glycogen depletion, or muscle damage.

Olympic champion race walkers are being busted for EPO

coach.. wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Independently, I'm not convinced that EPO, RBC boosting, or blood transfusions can help in the marathon, since it is an event with a slower pace that would seem to be not limited by oxygen delivery or utilisation, but rather other factors like heat accumulation or glycogen depletion, or muscle damage.

Olympic champion race walkers are being busted for EPO

Or they are being snared by the bio passport.

The 2008 50 km Olympic champion, Alex Schwazer, has tested positive for EPO.

The 2012 50 km Olympic champion, Sergey Kirdyapkin, has been caught by the bio passport.

The 2008 Mens 20 km Olympic champion, Valeriy Borchin, has been caught by the bio passport.

The 2008 Womens 20 km Olympic champion, Olga Kaniskina, has been caught by the bio passport.

In the week where we learned that Kenyan Journalists think it is completely OK to invent an interview with one of their top runners (Wilson Chebet), what further information on the drug issue have they provided us with in this documentary?

- That Rita Jeptoo's (former) husband thinks Claudio gave her EPO mid run from a water bottle.

- That an anonymous 'athlete' went to a store to buy EPO then backed out when he was told it wasn't in tablet form. No EPO was purchased or seen.

- That Matthew Kisorio thinks we are all idiots and would believe him that he allowed a doctor to inject him without him having any idea what it was.

- Isiah Kiplagat is desperate to blame foreigner managers but offers no evidence or even reasoning as to why.

- That Hajo Sepelt is a very forgetful man. He can't remember the name of the store he bought drugs from. He can't remember which currency he bought them with, and he can't even remember which drugs it was! If you are being specifically interviewed on this subject it seems a little strange not to either know these facts out right or to check them before the interview occurs.

- That the Kenyan documentary team claim to have backed up Sepealt's claims of how easy it is to but EPO in Kenya but do not appear at any point to have actually done that.

The Jeptoo apprehension should have rocked running to its foundation. But few care about the sport, and even less about the lead packs of east Africans. She's merely the tip of the iceberg.

What I'm curious about is how masses of athletes would beat the biological passport. What we've seen in the past is that the fringe runners are the ones who get caught -- Hellebuyk, that American no name guy who posts on here, Trafeh-- because they didn't have the resources to do things right. So the tests sucked, and if Kenyans weren't being tested very often they could probably do nice doping cycles in training without getting caught.

But now that the bio passport seems to be effective, snaring notorious doping countries (Turkey, Spain, former Soviet republics), why are there only limited fails out of Kenya? You can't beat the passport if you're not closely monitored by a doctor, and even then it seems difficult.Do you guys think there'll be an avalanche of positives soon, or is it just the case that only 10-15% of Kenyans are doping? I have a hard time believing that Kenyans can beat the passport when the Russians can't.

Lost in all of this is what the hell is going on in Ethiopia. Repressive, secretive, remote country with the world's best runners screams "organized doping" to me. The fact that Western runners seem to be training in Eth. now instead of Kenya just makes things more suspicious.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

WTF???????? wrote:

Jeff old pal I think you need to brush up on your comprehension skills or control the images your imagination is conjuring up.

Enlighten me.

Certainly - "though what you wrote conjures up an image of having synthetic EPO placed on the aisle next to the allergy medication" - maybe in your naïve imagination Jeff but not mine. In mine it says "In Kenya it is available at your local pharmacy without a prescription".

Letsrun apologists wrote:

In Kenya it is available at your local pharmacy without a prescription.

Unless you saw it on the shelf next to the aspirin, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. It is easy enough to get, and there are doctors there who are offering it, though what you wrote conjures up an image of having synthetic EPO placed on the aisle next to the allergy medication.[/quote]

Jeff old pal I think you need to brush up on your comprehension skills or control the images your imagination is conjuring up.[/quote]

Freelove wrote:

I have a hard time believing that Kenyans can beat the passport when the Russians can't.

Lack of testing in Kenya also, aren't there allowances made for athletes born/living/training at altitude?

Testing and Altitude wrote:

Freelove wrote:

I have a hard time believing that Kenyans can beat the passport when the Russians can't.

Lack of testing in Kenya also, aren't there allowances made for athletes born/living/training at altitude?

Is this true or just message board rumour? I see lots of people talking about altitude training effectively gives you a free pass on the bio passport but haven't seen anyone (with any credibility) explain why or how. Is this actually true or just a message board rumour that has taken wings?

There really aren't that many WADA accredited labs in the world, and testing protocol requires that the samples reach the lab in a very short time frame. In Africa there is just the one lab in South Africa, so this is a big problem. Either you fly the samples to a far off lab, or you set up a new lab locally, which itself is not cheap (space, equipment, staff, oversight, etc). I think Kenya did some publicity stunt a few years ago where they proved that they could fly samples to a lab in Switzerland within the required time frame, but who knows what's really happening day to day. Who knows what's going on in Ethiopia, since it's a more closed country. Maybe someone with firsthand experience can tell us.

For those who have bothered to watch the doc the issue of EPO in Kenya is getting out of hand. Within the Kenyan running cycles there has been 2 or 3 deaths of athletes that many think it's related to the same issue. There is all sorts of allegations being thrown around hard to know what to believe. One thing for sure EPO is readily available in Kenya

Message Board Madness wrote:

Testing and Altitude wrote:

Lack of testing in Kenya also, aren't there allowances made for athletes born/living/training at altitude?

Is this true or just message board rumour? I see lots of people talking about altitude training effectively gives you a free pass on the bio passport but haven't seen anyone (with any credibility) explain why or how. Is this actually true or just a message board rumour that has taken wings?

WADA Athlete Biological Passport Operating Guidelines

"The ABP intends to establish that an Athlete is manipulating his/her physiological variables, without necessarily detecting a particular Substance or Method. This approach has proven effective in establishing Anti-Doping Rule Violations (ADRVs), without having to rely on traditional analytical approaches and Target Testing those likely to be doping. The ABP does not replace traditional Testing methods, but rather complements analytical methods to further refine and strengthen overall anti-doping strategies.

Indicates...further investigations and/or analysis.

2.4. Athlete Information

Given that additional information is required from Athletes beyond what is collected in traditional anti-doping documentation pursuant to the IST, supplemental or revised documentation may be required. Therefore, ABP documentation should ensure that the required information is collected by various means, both prior to and after Testing, for Laboratory information and ADO assessment as required.

In addition to the mandatory information set out in IST Article 7.4.5, which must be recorded as a part of all Sample Collection Sessions, the following minimum information should be included...

a. Location of Testing.

b. Event (if relevant).

c. Blood loss or gain, due to pathology or transfusion, (with estimated volume) in the three months preceding each Sample Collection.

d. Information on the Use of simulated hypoxic conditions in the prior two (2) weeks. The type of device and the manner in which it was used (frequency, duration, simulated altitude) shall be recorded.

e. Information on exposure to a high altitude (>1000 meters) in the prior two (2) weeks, including estimated altitude and duration.

f. Information on most recent training or physical activity, as applicable."

So, if you're an athlete "born/living/training at altitude" you're less likely to be targeted for "further investigations and/or analysis". Of course you've got to be randomly, and most importantly, regularly randomly tested in the first place, which is highly unlikely for most in East Africa.

Caveat, I'm no expert, DYOR.

If you really want to get in to it here's a WADA research paper, 'Characterising the effect of altitude on ABP blood markers':

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/research/characterising-the-effect-of-altitude-on-abp-blood-markers

" ‘Prior altitude exposure’ is typically raised as the excuse for an elevated OFF score, and while this is physiologically plausible it is inevitably exaggerated by the athlete to their advantage."

Given that it is easy to hide away in Africa, wouldn't you start doping up these guys before they become good enough to get in the testing pool, so you are conferring a huge advantage on them already. Then, the first BP reading they have is from a doped baseline, which you can then explain away by altitude. Next step is to unleash amazing performances by the 'genetic marvels' on the unsuspecting world, and just carry on doping in the same manner, which will give you identical BP results because the originals were dope-produced anyway.

You can see parallels to this approach in other inherently corrupt, insular societies like GDR, Spain, Italy, Eastern Bloc generally, and Turkey.

The superior, more open, though still flawed, model of largely English-speaking Western society at least makes some attempt to bust people and investigate these things.

Lydiard is God wrote:

Given that it is easy to hide away in Africa, wouldn't you start doping up these guys before they become good enough to get in the testing pool, so you are conferring a huge advantage on them already. Then, the first BP reading they have is from a doped baseline, which you can then explain away by altitude. Next step is to unleash amazing performances by the 'genetic marvels' on the unsuspecting world, and just carry on doping in the same manner, which will give you identical BP results because the originals were dope-produced anyway.

You can see parallels to this approach in other inherently corrupt, insular societies like GDR, Spain, Italy, Eastern Bloc generally, and Turkey.

The superior, more open, though still flawed, model of largely English-speaking Western society at least makes some attempt to bust people and investigate these things.

This doesn't work unless you can keep your values within a narrow band. When you look at the passports of people who've been busted, they're all over the place in ways that aren't naturally possible, and that's how they get caught. It doesn't matter if you start with a doped value when your tests show huge swings outside the realm of physiological possibility.