Breaking News - Kenyan doping blows up big time!

Nutella1 wrote:

Canova was incredible naive thinking that there was no doping problem in Kenya despite the mounting evidence.

I hope for the latter.

OK, but if it turns out that the crop of 2:02-2:03 runners were doping and Canova knew nothing about it, what does that say about his knowledge of human physiology?

to dope or not to dope? That's the ?

Nutella1 wrote:

fcok u ser wrote:

Canova hasn't posted here in months. He doesn't do it anymore because of idiots like you constantly questioning him about doping when he was talking about training. Ask him about when he posts in threads about doping, not in his training threads.

Canova either knew what was going on and participated or at least tolerated the massive doping that was/is going on in Kenya

or

Canova was incredible naive thinking that there was no doping problem in Kenya despite the mounting evidence.

I hope for the latter.

You can hope all you want....

Canova is a joke. Almost as big a joke as any of you americans and canadians who believe anything he says.

There is a sucker born every minute, and likewise an a-hole who will take advantage of things.

Forget the warm and fuzzy teachings of your kindergarten days.

The world is FULL of a-holes, and Canova is just one more.

Renato Canova is here, and doesn't change his convinction EPO doesn't help the best Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes to run faster.

Remember I never said EPO doesn't work with Kenyan runners, I Always said doesn't work with the best in the world, and the top runners are clean.

About doping, till when I was long time in Kenya (this happened till Oct 2013, before becoming the responsible for Chinese middle and long distances), I could see an excalation of stupid mistakes involving athletes of medium level, cheated by KENYAN doctors and pharmacists in the area of Kapsabet and Eldoret, and I spoke about this with AK in several occasions.

I already explained, in this website, that the first time we had some suspicion that the situation in Kenya was no longer the same as before, was in 2011, when one person went to Patrick Sang during Baringo HM, asking him if he was a coach (clear signal this man had nothing to do with athletics, since it's not possible some people involved in athletics in Kenya doesn't know Patrick Sang), and offering some "support" for improving the performance of his athletes of 2 minutes (for HM). Patrick told me this story, and we informed AK about this "new" and dangerous situation.

But, of course, was easier to think that the responsibles were foreigner managers or coaches, in spite of the fact the pharmacies involved were well known, and there were precise statements for identifying the real guilties.

However, this situation, in my opinion, didn't involve the best athletes, only second level runners, without any control by their management (many of them didn't have any manager).

My experience is that is possible to run WR without getting any external support (legal or illegal). This is what Moses Mosop, Abel Kirui, Florence Kiplagat (and, before, Saaeed Shaheen) did, and I don't see any reason because other athletes can't run fast like them, or a little faster, being clean.

I don't think some management can be involved in this situation. Of course, in the case of Federico Rosa, for example, for people out of the Athletics World, might be difficult to think that a management having among its clients Mathew Kisorio, Rita Jeptoo and several other athletes doped, doesn't know what the athletes do, but this is the reality.

I never had professional relations with Rosa Group, but I well know that is not possible to control what athletes do, in areas like Kapsabet, where there are doctors exerting undue influence over mental weak athletes.

Now, of course I accept the fact that some athlete uses PEDs. This is a FACT. But I don't accept the idea that they run fast because of this, since other athletes, faster than them, are completely clean.

About the fact I went this year to Ethiopia and not Kenya, there are not "Conspiracy huntings" behind this decision. I had to move with a Group of 27 Chinese, and in Iten this was not possible, because we need to book everything several months earlier (inside the end of May for the next Winter) if we want to have all together, may be in Lornah Kiplagat training camp or in Kerio View Hotel. Instead, we found a perfect solution in Kenenisa's Resort in Solulta, and the training period was very much productive.

About Ethiopian runners, I already had several Ethiopian in the past, with my training plan. The difference is that, this year, I had the opportunity to follow them in closer way, being long time in Addis.

Take in your mind I can only give training programmes to local coaches following the best athletes, both in Kenya and Ethiopia, due to my job with Chinese Federation. Take also in your mind that in Kenya and Ethiopia there are, sometimes, situation not clear, and false accusations are a normal system for blackening the names of some difficult opponent : for example, I read the statement about Charles Ngeno, coach of Faith Kipyegon and respinsible of the Keringet training camp, who worked in the past following my training programmes, and I discovered it's something connected with "sexual abuse". I don't know if this is true or not, of sure the opinion I have about Ngeno is very far from the picture of a "raper" (like, for example, the Ugandan coach accused by Moses Kipsiro).

I hope possible to have a link with an interview Haile Gebrselassie had two days ago in Milan, before the Marathon (this is in CorriereTV, the link is

www.corriere.it

). The interview is in English, and it's possible to understand the real mentality and motivation of Haile. His words are a good explanation because Ethiopian don't dope (and, after staying long time with Kenenisa, I can say this position is the position of the best athletes in the world).

Canova, do you have any response to the news that a fairly famous Kenyan, who had won two major marathons last year, has been busted? Do you have any knowledge of the investigations going on into Van der Veen's group?

More and more, AK seems to be cutting off its athletes from outside influence: they require more domestic racing, expelling foreign doctors, and now expelling foreign agents.

But if you say that it is really cheating by Kenyan doctors and pharmacists (in Kapsabet and Eldoret), is AK just posturing in these expulsions?

Do you think that their new attitude towards foreigners threatens your relationship with your Kenyan athletes, or their local coaches?

as always, your perspective and insights are much appreciated here, even if I can't agree with your assertions that the top athletes are necessarily clean or that EPO does not provide an advantage to the top athletes. That only mid-level runners so far (on the world scale) have tested positive in the marathon is not true. Jeptoo was not mid-level. But the lower rung athletes are certainly less likely to have the support necessary to avoid positive tests, and it is also possible that the upper-level athletes are protected by doping authorities, as that is precisely what has happened in numerous past cases, from Lance Armstrong to Athletics West, and currently the IAAF is suppressing many, many suspicious blood passports and positive tests from the 2000s. They announce they have them but won't share them. So, we have no reason to trust the top athletes, especially in an era when guys with zero track credentials are beating a 12:39/26:22 legend's marathon best by as much as 62 seconds.

jjjjj wrote:

I can't agree with your assertions that the top athletes are necessarily clean or that EPO does not provide an advantage to the top athletes.

Jeptoo was not mid-level.

You can't be serious.

Rita Jeptoo was a 2:23 runner before her pregnancy when she was still clean, that is 8 min slower than the world record.

Would you regard a 2:11 male runner as top-level? Certainly not.

Rita Jeptoo started her activity with me, when only 18 years old, in 1999.

I moved her to Marathon in 2004, against the opinion of the most part of people knowing her, because I found a very high "mental" resistance among her qualities. She won Stockholm in 2:36, than Milan in 2:28. Next year, she came Iten for preparing WCh, and ran 2:24. Till when she was in my training camp in Iten (which I ran using my personal money, not connected with any manager, because, being the head coach of Qatar, I wanted to give back something to young Kenyan athletes), she was very serious in training, improving every time.

When she won Boston in 2006, she ran, from 30 km till the end, the last 12.195 km FASTER THAN THE FIRST 10 MEN, arriving in Boston only few hours before the race, for Visa's problem. I well know that her 2:23:38 could already become 2:21, with a different race.

After that period, two things happened : she got married with Noah Busienei, and had a baby. When she came back, for problems with her first manager Gianni Demadonna, she went with Federico Rosa, going to train with Claudio Berardelli, who is absolutely above suspicion.

I don't give any merit to her doping for running so fast in the last two seasons. She didn't have any advantage, since in 2013-2014 she had the continuity in training that couldn't have before, also because she solved a complicated situation with the husband, becoming free to train in full professional way in Kapsabet.

In many cases, people not knowing the athletes, their history, their career, their family problems, look at their performances for deciding if their improvement can have a logic or is fruit of doping. In Kenya and Ethiopia, I know a lot of cases of athletes of mid level, but with very high talent, not able for long time to achieve good performances, because, for example, didn't have money for buying food, and, after going in a training camp, for the ONLY FACT finally could eat twice per day, suddenly improved of 5-7 minutes their performances. So, their doping was the possibility to have, finally, two normal meals.

Not many Kenyans have a professional behavior, when train alone. Athletes can run for 6-8 years in spontaneus groups (such as happens in Iten) without real precise training plans, not knowing WHEN and WHERE their Marathon can be : they don't have manager (nobody of top managers is interested in athletes slower than 2:10, because organizers don't pay their ticket and the money they can win is very little), continue training without a goal, and many times find the possibility to compete (most part of times in Asia) when are already out of shape.

So, don't be confused by sudden improvement : the same athlete, finding finally the possibility to stay in one camp with proper organization, can finally reach the proper level according to his qualities, because everything, around him, changed.

Too many people speak, not only in this website, about African athletes, without knowing African life, the athletes themselves, and the effects of training. And what appears in local newspapers is something emotional, where the part of truth is no more than 30% of the reality.

Renato Canova wrote:

When she won Boston in 2006 [..] 2:23:38 could already become 2:21, with a different race.

That is irrelevant.

Her PB of 2:18 is also in Boston, same course.

So she had a baby, came back and ran 5min faster.

HUGE RED FLAG.

flomenatrack wrote:

Are you reading this, Russian federation? EPOpians? Jamaica/America sprint scene?

No other country, to be fair, has really set a great example for Kenya as far as doping goes. This likely disaster is, sadly, what should be expected.

I can promise you things would never be allowed to explode like this in Ethiopia. You need to visit both countries to truly understand how different the two countries are. Ethiopia is a more closed, insular, controlled society, more about the collective. Kenyans, on the other hand, tend to be far more open, anti-establishment (take Asbel Kiprop or Wilson Kipsang for example), mistrustful of government and, unfortunately, more individualistic. An Ethiopian runner could be motivated most by national glory while a Kenyan may be fixated on a farm in the Rift Valley.

Visiting Ethiopia, it's practically impossible to ignore the weight of the state in all aspects of life while that's just not the case in Kenya which, especially by African standards, feels much more free. Of course, there are pros and cons to both: for example, a terrorist attack by a foreign entity would be virtually impossible in Ethiopia. For those who don't get it, think China vs the U.S.

Kenya is more American....capitalist, controlled in some part by the slanderuos media as a way to intimidate and control people who fall out of favour for some reason (think Asbel Kiprop's assault story and Kipsang's missed drug test tale)Ethiopia is more Socialist...more Communist. The "whole" and the group is incredibly important and an athlete who doped and was caught would be shunned and possible thrown in jail or worse (keep in mind Ethiopians who have left the country are not bound by the same political and cultural constraints).

'Communist' is actually pretty close. But Ethiopians have large immigrant communities all over the world, including Kenya. So far, no one born and raised outside of Ethiopia has risen to athletic prominence. The Aggerawis and Hassan all emigrated.

Getting pretty close wrote:

Ethiopia is more Socialist...more Communist. The "whole" and the group is incredibly important and an athlete who doped and was caught would be shunned and possible thrown in jail or worse (keep in mind Ethiopians who have left the country are not bound by the same political and cultural constraints).

You think the 'communist' and closed off nature of Ethiopia is a sign that doping is less likely to occur there?

Let's be honest, it makes doping a squad much simpler. Keep them hidden away, and make sure the penalties are known for getting caught/telling anybody.

Kenya's athletes are here there and everywhere, and eventually things were going to be revealed. Ethiopia's government controlled operation is much harder to uncover given the lack of freedom the athletes have.

I realize I'm biting the trollbait, but seriously....socialist societies are LESS likely to dope? LOLOLOLOLFLGDR, USSR, PRC...I'll stop now before I gag....

Getting pretty close wrote:

Ethiopia is more Socialist...more Communist. The "whole" and the group is incredibly important and an athlete who doped and was caught would be shunned and possible thrown in jail or worse (keep in mind Ethiopians who have left the country are not bound by the same political and cultural constraints).

El Keniano wrote:

[quote]flomenatrack wrote:

Are you reading this, Russian federation? EPOpians? Jamaica/America sprint scene?

No other country, to be fair, has really set a great example for Kenya as far as doping goes. This likely disaster is, sadly, what should be expected.

Getting pretty close wrote:

Kenya is more American....capitalist, controlled in some part by the slanderuos media as a way to intimidate and control people who fall out of favour for some reason (think Asbel Kiprop's assault story and Kipsang's missed drug test tale)

Ethiopia is more Socialist...more Communist. The "whole" and the group is incredibly important and an athlete who doped and was caught would be shunned and possible thrown in jail or worse (keep in mind Ethiopians who have left the country are not bound by the same political and cultural constraints).

El Keniano wrote:

.

Doesn't make much difference whether the country is capitalist or communist. As cynical and sad as it sounds I was pretty disheartened to watch both nations run so dominantly at the world XCs this year. They didn't even look tired. Wouldn't be at all surprised at systemic doping by both countries. In fact almost expect that's the case anymore. Not to mention some of the top Americans and Euros of the past decade--although I think that's more at the training group level, probably covered up by the governing boards.

The other guy! wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

When she won Boston in 2006 [..] 2:23:38 could already become 2:21, with a different race.

That is irrelevant.

Her PB of 2:18 is also in Boston, same course.

So she had a baby, came back and ran 5min faster.

HUGE RED FLAG.

I'd like to point out this isn't a hobby runner like me cutting 5 minutes off a marathon. At that level, 5 minutes is an enormous change.

One thing is for absolute sure - there is no systemic doping in Kenya. There are obviously individuals, and maybe even management groups doping, but there is no national or federation level doping program. It is simply beyond them. Everything is atomized in Kenya. AK exerts little control. Besides, they're incompetent on every level except graft. Ethiopia might be able to swing it. Kenya? No way.

faded hope wrote:

Wouldn't be at all surprised at systemic doping by both countries. In fact almost expect that's the case anymore. Not to mention some of the top Americans and Euros of the past decade--although I think that's more at the training group level, probably covered up by the governing boards.

Kenya also has the most unregulated, blood-thirsty media in all of Africa; the kind that makes British tabloids look like the New York Times. They would never allow something as juicy as government-sanctioned systematic doping to pass them by. Opposition politicians would also want in on the fun. Our penchant for gossip and conspiracy theories doesn't leave much room for secrets. I almost feel sorry for Volare sports and Rosa Associati.