If a runner can deadlift 2x bw with no formal training they need to switch sports.
I would also add that 6 weeks is a short time to evaluate anything when many of the benefits will be unoticeable (injury resistence and health benefits). The performance benefits are also not likely to be astronomical even over a long peroid of time.
At the end of the day it's like any kind of training...how much effort are you willing to put in for a few more seconds?
Alan
Kimetto absolutely did break the WR because of it, only he didn't call it weight training...he called it getting water or working on his farm, or just being Kenyan.
While the average US citizen is sitting 8-10 hours a day in the 4th grade, Kenyans are living much more active lifestyles with greater responsibilities. Most Kenyans would trade lives in a heartbeat, but if you want to know why they are better...start there. Why is it Kimetto was able to take on a high training load at a young age? Better strength. How was he able to go directly to the marathon and skip a track career? Better strength.
As long as American kids continue their sedentary lifestyles, they will not be as equipped to handle high training loads at such a young age. Therefore they start their running careers already in the hole.
runningart2004 wrote:
The reason you blah blah blah
All you did with your bogus theories was to make yourself worse.
If you were 5'9 and 130 pounds AND running at all well for your age, as a result of what you've been doing, then that might be different, but you're not and what you do is just stupid stuff that would make runners worse if they listened to you.
And why are you trying to sound like an expert, when all you have done is to fail with the modicrum of talent that you USED to have, before you destroyed it.
runningart2004 wrote:
I would also add that 6 weeks is a short time to evaluate anything when many of the benefits will be unoticeable (injury resistence and health benefits). The performance benefits are also not likely to be astronomical even over a long peroid of time.
Alan, I correspond with a bunch of people on Dan John's "Easy Strength" protocol - a few minutes a day, 5x per week, very low volume - and have got quite a few runners doing this. Invariably they are feeling good enough within that time - springier, more mobile and faster 5k times - to realise that it is worth investing more time in it. I would encourage you to give it a try.
Weight training is not pointless. I can testify that it has helped my mechanics and finishing kick.
cbenson4 wrote:
Weight training is not pointless. I can testify that it has helped my mechanics and finishing kick.
Unless you run at an elite level you should have no "finishing kick".
you're just mentally weak wrote:
cbenson4 wrote:Weight training is not pointless. I can testify that it has helped my mechanics and finishing kick.
Unless you run at an elite level you should have no "finishing kick".
I don't suppose you understand what the word "relative" means?
A finishing kick to one person might be a 72 last 400. To another it might be a 65. To another it might be a 53.
Hope this helped you.
cbenson4 wrote:
you're just mentally weak wrote:Unless you run at an elite level you should have no "finishing kick".
I don't suppose you understand what the word "relative" means?
A finishing kick to one person might be a 72 last 400. To another it might be a 65. To another it might be a 53.
Hope this helped you.
Run more, stop being a pvssy ,and you'll be able to run all even laps at 72. Maybe the last lap will be 73, but that would mean you have cojones (unknown to you, I know).
you're just mentally weak wrote:
cbenson4 wrote:I don't suppose you understand what the word "relative" means?
A finishing kick to one person might be a 72 last 400. To another it might be a 65. To another it might be a 53.
Hope this helped you.
Run more, stop being a pvssy ,and you'll be able to run all even laps at 72. Maybe the last lap will be 73, but that would mean you have cojones (unknown to you, I know).
Running more + weight training as a supplement will facilitate that anyway. You must be one of those old-school, "running is all you need"-type thinkers. I think the real question is, why *not* do the weight training?
Let's be real here. To be as fast as you can possibly be, you have to consider everything that can help you to improve. It's more than just having guts and high mileage. Training smart is the answer.
This is stupid wrote:
runningart2004 wrote:The reason you blah blah blah
All you did with your bogus theories was to make yourself worse.
If you were 5'9 and 130 pounds AND running at all well for your age, as a result of what you've been doing, then that might be different, but you're not and what you do is just stupid stuff that would make runners worse if they listened to you.
And why are you trying to sound like an expert, when all you have done is to fail with the modicrum of talent that you USED to have, before you destroyed it.
I have no clue what you are even talking about. I stopped being a competitive runner years ago after I got married. I picked up weight lifting after I stopped running competitively.
I did have two of my best marathons while I was teaching a boot camp back in '05-'06. It wasn't a programmed structure, just basic bodyweight movements twice a week.
Never said anything about being an expert. Being a strength training expert isn't necessary to improve strength in distance runners. The hardest part is getting runners in the weight room at all.
Evidence-based programming is based on scientific research and athletes having success. The research is there supportIng my theorIes. Elite runners conduct strength training programs involving basic and functional barbell exercises.
My goal has always been to provide sound basic programming advice. The alternative is P90X or 100s of pushups. Most runners, like most people in general, lack sound judgement in the weight room. This is typIcally in contrast to the advanced running programs competitive runners engage in.
I'm not a coach. I'm not even a personal trainer anymore. I do still train people every day and am currently developing the physical training program for my army unit.
Maybe I'll write a free E-book then I can stop posting the same arguments again and again.
Alan
cbenson4 wrote:
To be as fast as you can possibly be, you have to consider everything that can help you to improve.
Sure. Wearing the newest running apparel will also help you feel cool, make you relax, and thus improve your running. In fact I guess this will improve a 72-lap runner as much as weight training.
you're just mentally weak wrote:
cbenson4 wrote:I don't suppose you understand what the word "relative" means?
A finishing kick to one person might be a 72 last 400. To another it might be a 65. To another it might be a 53.
Hope this helped you.
Run more, stop being a pvssy ,and you'll be able to run all even laps at 72. Maybe the last lap will be 73, but that would mean you have cojones (unknown to you, I know).
WOW. It is shocking how ignorant people are. I would bet my life you have never won a race of significance in your entire life. Keep being mentally strong and running those 72's though bud.
I sometimes forget that the avg age of a Letrun poster is 20 yrs my junior. Rational debate does not exist here.
Alan
J.R. wrote:
Strength / resistance training, occasionally but not much, to not overdo it and because it remains a long time.
Weight training, bulking, no, not ever.
Is the above a serious comment?
runningart2004 wrote:
I sometimes forget that the avg age of a Letrun poster is 20 yrs my junior. Rational debate does not exist here.
Alan
Oh, I'm so impressed by your mature "rational debate".
As you're old and didn't get any insight into science when you were young, I doubt anything can help you. But bear in mind that in real science a study with 1000 participants is called a pilot study because of the huge uncertainties involved. Fortunately for you, when you pop an pain killer you can be sure that it has been tested with experiments invlolving 50000 subjects. And it builds on stringent protocols that have been refined over decades, including placebo groups and control groups.
But hey! Stick to your toy studies with 7 subjects, pump your iron and finish your 5k at 9 min pace. It's sad though, that you pass on your ignorance to young runners.
you're just mentally weak, so contribute what you know or believe. Here's the topic: do you use strength training or is it pointless? Can you do that? We will all be waiting!
runningart2004 wrote:
A few things....
VO2max doesn't matter...I thought we already covered that here? You could improve your performance by leaps and bounds without your VO2max moving an inch. Other factors also affect your running such as RE and LT. Strength training/plyos Improve RE.
There are always problems with research studies. They are too short, not enough subjects, the protocol is wack, or the subjects aren't specific to our needs (competitive runners). They are flawed but they still provide important data points.
Yes you need to maximize your runnIng by runnIng but if you value your running long term then you should do some sort of strength training for injury prevention. Still you should NOT replace your training with strength training, you should augment. 30 minutes 1-2 x a week is not asking a lot.
Also, Salazar's guys do resistence training (even with barbells! Oh the horror), Geb hit gym, Morceli hit the gym, Steve Spence (1991 world champs marathon bronze).
So you have all of these data points, the research and high-level runners, telling you strength training is beneficial. The bIggest Issue seems to be the how? Old school machIne cIrcuIts? Cool and sexy functIonal/specIfIc traInIng? Just plyos? It makes lIttle sense to put the roof on the house wIthout a strong foundatIon. Heavy strength traInIng provIdes the foundatIon for the cool functIonal stuff.
At least do something. Even if its nothing more than bodyweight exercises/plyos. Something is better than nothing.
Alan
If you could remove 20 from your V02 with an injection you would immediately become slower.
V02 matters. A lot.
Like Alan I will continue to pass on my ignorance to young people like I have been doing for 30 + years. In this day and age where most of us, young and old, sit 8 hours a day we need some for of strength training. Most of us are dysfunctional and imbalanced and flat out weak. If you want to maximize your potential then you need some form of strength training whether it be in the weight room, on the farm, or doing other forms of hard labor.
runningart2004 wrote:
If a runner can deadlift 2x bw with no formal training they need to switch sports.
I would also add that 6 weeks is a short time to evaluate anything when many of the benefits will be unoticeable (injury resistence and health benefits). The performance benefits are also not likely to be astronomical even over a long peroid of time.
At the end of the day it's like any kind of training...how much effort are you willing to put in for a few more seconds?
Alan
I deadlifted 400 pounds with no formal training at a bodyweight of 165.
Which other sport should I do?
eurodonkey wrote:
runningart2004 wrote:It takes very little effort for a distance runner to recieve great benefit from strength training. Maybe 30min twice a week.
Alan
Do what Alan says. Try it for six weeks. Then, if your running doesn't improve, feel free to stop.
Or, if you want to be a bit "sciencey", test yourself. If you can deadlift 2x your bodyweight or cover 25m in ten hops, maybe you don't need to invest in strength training. If you can only deadlift 1x bodyweight, the difference in your running after six weeks when you get to 1.25x will be noticeable.
I wish I had known more about strength training aged 16.
This is exactly my experience. Deadlifts work for running.