How fast can someone run who does 100 miles/week in singles at 6 minute pace?

If you go back a few decades to a time when there wasn't anywhere near the amount of information about training available that there is now you found a lot of people doing stuff that no one does anymore because we were sort of on our own needing to put together bits and pieces of things we'd heard or read.

The guy who doesn't believe it was possible for me to run a half marathon, more or less, at my marathon pace every day, more or less, may not have been as big a fan of Ron Clarke as I was. Clarke did a 10-12 mile run every weekday around 5:00 pace or better yet he never ran a marathon at faster than 5:20. Derek Clayton ran nearly all of his main sessions at close to marathon pace. Bill Adcocks typically did 11 mile runs for his main sessions at 5:00 pace which was essentially his marathon pace. Dick Taylor, the British one, not the Kiwi, ran at about the same pace as Adcocks but was never a marathoner. It's unlikely he'd have gone under 2:10 if he'd run one. In Joe Henderson's "LSD" book he mentions a friend of his called Rich Delgado who, Joe says, "blasts through his 140 mile weeks rarely seeing the slow side of 6:00 miles." He mentions that Delgado's best marathon was 2:37.

I wasn't Clarke or Adcocks but I also wasn't doing 5:00 miles either. It just seemed impossible to me that someone could run 26 miles at once at a pace faster than what they did pretty much every day unless maybe you did loads of interval work and that did not appeal to me or work at all well when I tried it. And I agree completely with you about the mysterious nature of injuries. In a way they're like a scaled down version of cancer. We have some ideas about what causes it but can find all sorts of examples of people who should get it but don't and people who shouldn't get it but do.

This is very insightful, HRE, and thanks for the details. So, what should I do? Still trying to get over my hamstring/piriformis injury, which seems to be about gone. Now, though, the IT band in my left knee has a tight/weird feeling--not particularly hurtful, per se. Likewise, I have an odd feeling on the outside (lateral) part of my right foot (fifth metatarsal/cuboid area). Again, not terribly hurtful, but strange and tight.

Not only are the injuries mysterious and surprising, but then there are the after-effects of ramping back up into training that seem to spur these other "lesser" issues. To me, there is no sport as difficult or demanding as running. I want to do that marathon in November, and feel I have the body type and fitness (if healthy) for a sub-3, but just getting through the training (aside from the effort in the race itself) is risky.

I never tried to run at any pace at any time in my life in training. Whatever pace I ran was always a by product of a level of effort. So even at that phase when I was doing stuff at around 6:00 it would have been much slower if I was running over mountains, if it was really hot or for me, if I was having a rare morning run.I always ran up to the comfort/discomfort borderline and stayed there. The exceptions to that statement were almost always times when I was feeling sick or had something hurting that didn't go away after 5-10 minutes. Then I usually ran much slower and occasionally shortened the run if things were really bad.

But the effort was always the same otherwise though it took a few minutes to get up to full effort whether that meant 6:00 miles or 8:00s. The first thing I'd suggest is that you make sure you aren't forcing anything. It's pretty natural when you begin coming back from sickness or injury to want to get back to where you were before things went bad. I'd suggest maybe a month of spending the TIME you'd been spending on running before injury on your feet and running as much as you can do but forcing yourself to hold back your pace, walk a bit if you need to, etc., but to get your body back to moving around and supporting your body weight for the usual time. I always found that worked but obviously can't guarantee it will for everyone. Once you're back to regular running I'd recommend running to effort and not timing stuff.

So you did not take easy days easy, while building up from 50mpw to 150mpw in a span of a few years?

Is that how you recommend other people build up their mileage?

Thanks for the advice, HRE--it makes a lot of sense.

When healthy, I do in fact run to effort and/or feel. I would feel good nearly everyday, and I would run to effort. I am almost forced to run to effort, as I live in a hilly area. With regard to effort, prior to my injury a few months ago, I was running 6:45-6:55 pace for my hilly longer runs, 12-15 miles, without feeling I were really "pushing it." On my shorter days, I would do 6-8 miles at 6:38-6:45 pace, again without feeling too cooked. When I had a four-miler (my shortest day) here and there, I would end up running it at a pace similar to my 6-8 mile efforts, but usually a few seconds slower. My body gravitates toward progression running, and hence in a four-miler I simply did not have enough time/distance to get the pace down, mile after mile. Like you, I never start out fast. My first mile was usually in the 7:15 to 7:45 range--basically whatever I felt on that day.

We seem to have a fair amount in common. The hot days would always add +10, +15, or +20 to the pace. Again, effort is the key.

(I couldn't imagine heading out the door at 5:15-5:20 pace though!)

Derek Clayton, first guy to run under 2:10 for mar. used to at his 5 min. or faster pace. Mind you he didn't care to - at all!! He just wanted to be the best he could be.

I ran as hard as I could without breathing really hard. Now and again I'd have a day when I could only crawl along and do that. Every couple of months on the average I'd get this stomach thing that totally wiped me out and I had all I could manage to get out of bed and make for the toilet. I always thought of those times as my easy days.

The best answer to your question would require knowing the person getting the advice. But basically I'd just say that once you were settled at a certain level and had been for a while you'd add mile here or there, e.g., a ten mile day becomes an eleven mile day, a fifteen becomes a sixteen, etc. Maybe do that to two or three runs a week until you're comfortable at that level for a time and then do it again.

There were times when I felt really stuck, i.e., I'd add a few miles a week, say ten, and it just never got comfortable. So what I'd do was add maybe twenty miles for a stretch of two or three weeks and then move back down, e.g., if getting from 100-110 was a struggle I'd do a couple 120 mile weeks. Moving back down to 110 was always much easier then,

Interesting...my coach's PR is 2:32, and I do not think he ever got to 120--100, yes, but I will have to double check about mpw above that.

I don't believe he rolled out and did that pace everyday...maybe most days though. There is a big difference between running marathon race pace at exactly 5:00/mile and running 5:30 -5:40 pace of course...big difference.

He quoted long runs of 25 miles in the 2:20 range...which is a big more manageable (i.e. 5:30 to 5:40 pace). Heck I'm a total hack compared to runners like him and I put down a 24-mile long run in 2:18 and it wasn't that bad. Jeff Eggleston here in Boulder (2:10 guy who should be recognized for his amazing self-coached progression in the marathon) has been known to go 40km at 5:20 pace or so (aka Canova style)..but most days he says he's running around 6min pace or slower to recover...

I had a talk with Benji Durden last week about his training "back in the day"...he said on some of his easy days he'd only go 6-8 miles at 6:30-7min pace....But then on hard/long days he'd put in a 30-35 mile double at mostly sub 6min pace (with I'm sure surges down to sub 5 as that was his marathon race pace).

Yes, Derek trained very hard and I respect that. He also had a ton of injuries. Nonetheless he was a waaay faster marathon runner than I'll ever be for sure

Ron Clarke told me he thinks Clayton's injury troubles were because he did no exercise aside from running. Clarke was big on exercises. His son Marcus, who once beat Viren in a 3,000 meter race, would do hundreds of sit ups a day. Clarke told me he had a climbing rope in his backyard and Clayton couldn't get up it at all and Clarke's kids could climb the whole thing.

Back in the day, guys did not run 7 minute miles.

The only time I ran 7 minute miles was in a simulator at 6000 feet.

Bruchet trained with Richard Lee during the summer and started training at 6 instead of 7:30 on the easy days. He beat Jager and Blankenship. He credits the faster daily training pace for his breakthrough.

Lydiard's runners ran doubles.

Bump, this is a great thread!

Why are people putting 15:30, 15:59, etc. for the 5k? That's so slow. There are thousands of high school kids running sub 16:00 and very few of them could handle 14 miles a day at 6:00 pace...

The OP assumed that whoever was doing this would be within a comfortable aerobic range running 6:00 pace for an hour and a half. This is sub 15:00 indicative EASILY. What are you guys smoking?

If 6:00 is your true easy run pace (for 14 miles at that) you are pretty damn fast. Probably well under 15:00.

Duhhh wrote:

Why are people putting 15:30, 15:59, etc. for the 5k? That's so slow. There are thousands of high school kids running sub 16:00 and very few of them could handle 14 miles a day at 6:00 pace...

The OP assumed that whoever was doing this would be within a comfortable aerobic range running 6:00 pace for an hour and a half. This is sub 15:00 indicative EASILY. What are you guys smoking?

If 6:00 is your true easy run pace (for 14 miles at that) you are pretty damn fast. Probably well under 15:00.

I was wondering the same thing. I was a mediocre D1 runner who always ran high mileage (80-100 mpw) around 6-6:15 pace throughout college. Might have a few slower days each month, but we thought of every run as a workout. At that age, you just get used to it... or injured. I could never do it now (38).

Anyway, I wasn't very good, but I still ran 14:42 and hit the 14:40s at least a dozen times in my college career. Ran well under 31 for the 10,000 as well, but never broke 30 minutes.

Later I ran just under 2:30 for the marathon, but never seriously trained for it with actual workouts (other than long runs).

Just think those time lists are way off from my experiences with myself, teammates and friends.

bump

I think it was assumed a higher mileage background and probably a runner in their mid to late 20s or early 30s (with lots of experience). In that case the 15min+ or even 15:30 5km could still be on the mark.

As far as "comfortable aerobic range" that could vary quite a bit on the subjective level though! In my mind it would be under about 72% of Max HR and in that case I think you're right that this 6min mile pace runner would likely be at least a sub 14:30/sub 2:20 guy with lots of high mileage experience.

Still though, thinking back to my hs days (15:20 5km, 1:13 half marathon PRs) on about 40 miles a week average and we ran 6min pace on our "easy days"...it wasn't easy! I didn't have nearly the mileage base to sustain high mileage weeks even close to 6min pace...but an older runner who ran high mileage in college with that same 5km time probably could.

T-Rex wrote:

Calculader wrote:

According to VDOT:

Mile - 4:00

2 Mile - 8:30

5k - 13:40

10k - 28:30

Half - 1:03

Marathon - 2:11

Assuming his 6 mpm pace would be for him quite easy to do. 75% - 80% MHR?

oh, sorry. This would be based on 6mpm being the "E pace"

so 65-80% MHR?

HRE wrote:

I was always focused on the marathon and had the idea that if I was going to be able to run at a particular pace or effort level for a marathon I pretty much should be able to run at that pace for 10-15 miles every day.So when I was running 3:00 or so for marathons I was training around 7:00 pace, etc.

This is actually how I trained for a little while. I ran a sub-1:29 half off of about 20-25 miles a week in doubles. This was mostly off runs of 2 miles at 7-730 pace. Damn that was hard but it ended up working.

so anyway, I believe someone could do the same for a 3-hour marathon on 60+ mpw. I assume you pushed the pace almost everyday though.