Coaches run in the same road races as their runners all the time and I know a few who lead pace groups. So as far as the road racing is concerned this is nothing unusual.
How do you define coach? There are a lot of volunteer coaches who are also runners.
rulebook man wrote:
I found this text in an older NCAA manual (not sure about the most current one):
On the report of an official, a warning or disqualification shall
be ruled by the referee when a competitor has been aided. This includes
aid provided by a coach, a teammate not in the race or a noncompetitor
connected with the competitor’s team, directly or indirectly, who is on the
track or within the infield track area.
Note that it doesn't specify whether or not the coach is in the race. But in this case it sounds like the coach was on the track specifically to provide assistance to his athlete. Sounds like a violation to me.
Maybe it's splitting hairs, but one could interpret the coach who is legally entered in a race is acting as a "competitor" or "teammate" (depending upon how he is registered) in the race rather than acting in a "coach" role in the race.
In any case, there is precedent for this, it's no more advantageous than having any other pacer, and apparently competing teams' coaches aren't protesting. Generally, pacers are used to help runners to faster times (e.g. hitting qualifying times) and ostensibly work to the advantage of everyone in that particular race, not just the team providing the pacer.
Citizen Runner wrote:
Maybe it's splitting hairs, but one could interpret the coach who is legally entered in a race is acting as a "competitor" or "teammate" (depending upon how he is registered) in the race rather than acting in a "coach" role in the race.
No. It's splitting hares.
rulebook man wrote:
I found this text in an older NCAA manual (not sure about the most current one):
On the report of an official, a warning or disqualification shall
be ruled by the referee when a competitor has been aided. This includes
aid provided by a coach, a teammate not in the race or a noncompetitor
connected with the competitor’s team, directly or indirectly, who is on the
track or within the infield track area.
Note that it doesn't specify whether or not the coach is in the race. But in this case it sounds like the coach was on the track specifically to provide assistance to his athlete. Sounds like a violation to me.
This certainly makes it sound illegal.
Citizen Runner wrote:
rulebook man wrote:I found this text in an older NCAA manual (not sure about the most current one):
On the report of an official, a warning or disqualification shall
be ruled by the referee when a competitor has been aided. This includes
aid provided by a coach, a teammate not in the race or a noncompetitor
connected with the competitor’s team, directly or indirectly, who is on the
track or within the infield track area.
Note that it doesn't specify whether or not the coach is in the race. But in this case it sounds like the coach was on the track specifically to provide assistance to his athlete. Sounds like a violation to me.
Maybe it's splitting hairs, but one could interpret the coach who is legally entered in a race is acting as a "competitor" or "teammate" (depending upon how he is registered) in the race rather than acting in a "coach" role in the race.
In any case, there is precedent for this, it's no more advantageous than having any other pacer, and apparently competing teams' coaches aren't protesting. Generally, pacers are used to help runners to faster times (e.g. hitting qualifying times) and ostensibly work to the advantage of everyone in that particular race, not just the team providing the pacer.
I see your point but he is still a coach regardless of how or if he is registered for the race.
If a coach wants to jump into a race he should find a race that his team isn't competing in.
Haji wrote:
I see your point but he is still a coach regardless of how or if he is registered for the race.
If a coach wants to jump into a race he should find a race that his team isn't competing in.
I'm not disputing that the rule can be read as prohibiting this sort of thing. I'm suggesting that there is a plausible interpretation that allows it and since it is beneficial to all participants there aren't rules protests from competing coaches.
A rabbit, yes. A dog, cat, duck, horse, no
John Charles II wrote:
I'd say in small meets, or meets like all-comers. But not in a conference meet or championship meet.
No conference meet is going to allow the coach to be in the race.
The only correct answer is yes!! If it is an open meet, coaches are allowed to enter the race, just as anyone is. If they want to pace out their athlete to hit a certain mark, than what is the issue? All other athletes can also benefit too.
I, as a volunteer college coach, have done this several times. I always announce at the line what pace I am running and how long I expect to stay in the race for all to benefit. Often times, runners for other teams tag along and also benefit.
I don't see any issue with this at all.
runkeller wrote:
The only correct answer is yes!! If it is an open meet, coaches are allowed to enter the race, just as anyone is. If they want to pace out their athlete to hit a certain mark, than what is the issue? All other athletes can also benefit too.
I, as a volunteer college coach, have done this several times. I always announce at the line what pace I am running and how long I expect to stay in the race for all to benefit. Often times, runners for other teams tag along and also benefit.
I don't see any issue with this at all.
Did you read the rule that's been posted on here? Thoughts on that?
runkeller wrote:
The only correct answer is yes!! If it is an open meet, coaches are allowed to enter the race, just as anyone is. If they want to pace out their athlete to hit a certain mark, than what is the issue? All other athletes can also benefit too.
I, as a volunteer college coach, have done this several times. I always announce at the line what pace I am running and how long I expect to stay in the race for all to benefit. Often times, runners for other teams tag along and also benefit.
I don't see any issue with this at all.
Do you do this in races where your athletes aren't competing? I doubt it. It's for the primary benefit for your athletes (you're running a pace specifically for them), but it just so happens it might benefit someone else of a similar speed. It'd be like setting up a drinks table for your athletes during a hot 10000. Another runner might grab a cup, but you set it up to aid your athletes.
Do you enter races with the sole purpose of pacing then dropping out (e.g., the guy presumably entering the DMR by himself)? Then you're not really entering the race, are you? Plus, unless someone is going for a world or area record, or there's money on the line, why are rabbits even a thing?
If you're a coach, then coach. I don't understand coaches who jump in races, and I really don't understand coaches who do workouts with their teams. Stop trying to relive the glory days. Needing to pace your athletes means 1) you didn't enter them in an appropriate race, 2) you didn't prepare them well enough to run a certain pace on their own, and 3) you're not teaching them how to compete, just time trial.
Let's be transparent here--the coach in question is Steve LoBianco at York College, a mediocore D3 program. He's the head coach of the XC/T&F programs, and a former Shippensburg grad (note: the same methodology of Steve Spence).
http://ycpspartans.com/sports/mtrack/coaches/index
I've known several runners at this school and he has done this since beginning as an assistant distance coach for Track team. Since beginning with the team he has never created any separation between coach and athlete. He also runs all of the workouts and training runs with the team, and regularly races with them in Cross Country and Track. He doesn't act as a coach and only focuses his interests on the top performing distance runners.
A coach, especially a head coach, is responsible for all athletes, not just the events (and specific runners) of his choosing. I think it sounds really unprofessional that a coach still works out and races with the athletes he's training. Some of the team members seem to like it (those that he aids) but as already said, it's unacceptable and the coach should leave his glory days behind.
If he wants to do a long run on occasion with the team I could understand, but if he wants to run and train, it should be on his own time and not when he's being paid to coach.
gulls wrote:
Let's be transparent here--the coach in question is Steve LoBianco at York College, a mediocore D3 program. He's the head coach of the XC/T&F programs, and a former Shippensburg grad (note: the same methodology of Steve Spence).
http://ycpspartans.com/sports/mtrack/coaches/indexI've known several runners at this school and he has done this since beginning as an assistant distance coach for Track team. Since beginning with the team he has never created any separation between coach and athlete. He also runs all of the workouts and training runs with the team, and regularly races with them in Cross Country and Track. He doesn't act as a coach and only focuses his interests on the top performing distance runners.
A coach, especially a head coach, is responsible for all athletes, not just the events (and specific runners) of his choosing. I think it sounds really unprofessional that a coach still works out and races with the athletes he's training. Some of the team members seem to like it (those that he aids) but as already said, it's unacceptable and the coach should leave his glory days behind.
If he wants to do a long run on occasion with the team I could understand, but if he wants to run and train, it should be on his own time and not when he's being paid to coach.
OP here. The coach about whom I started the thread is actually in the midwest. Interesting in that this seems to be more widespread than I thought.
I agree with the rest of your post.
buffalo street harrier wrote:
If you're a coach, then coach. I don't understand coaches who jump in races, and I really don't understand coaches who do workouts with their teams. Stop trying to relive the glory days. Needing to pace your athletes means 1) you didn't enter them in an appropriate race, 2) you didn't prepare them well enough to run a certain pace on their own, and 3) you're not teaching them how to compete, just time trial.
This, This, a thousand times THIS.
I'm good with coaches doing workouts with their team (more so in HS than college) but you are not doing your job if you have to rabbit for them in a race.
Positive Contribution wrote:
John Charles II wrote:I'd say in small meets, or meets like all-comers. But not in a conference meet or championship meet.
No conference meet is going to allow the coach to be in the race.
The main rule for rabbiting any race is the same:
The rabbit must be an official entrant of the race.
So a coach can't rabbit a conference meet because he couldn't be entered in the race.
Also, this rule is why Paula Radcliffe's 2:15 marathon world record is questionable.
She had male pacers in an all female race.
There are a lot of post-collegiate athletes who continue to train and race but are on coaching staffs.
And rabbitted open races for collegiates are very very common.
So it seems normal that you would see these coaches training with their team and racing and rabbitting.
I think criticizing a coach for working out with their athletes is a bit harsh.
As far as rabbiting in races, seems like it might be a little awkward but it's hardly the worst thing in the world. I'd personally rather see other athletes do the rabbiting.
buffalo street harrier wrote:
Do you enter races with the sole purpose of pacing then dropping out (e.g., the guy presumably entering the DMR by himself)? Then you're not really entering the race, are you? Plus, unless someone is going for a world or area record, or there's money on the line, why are rabbits even a thing?
If you're a coach, then coach. I don't understand coaches who jump in races, and I really don't understand coaches who do workouts with their teams. Stop trying to relive the glory days. Needing to pace your athletes means 1) you didn't enter them in an appropriate race, 2) you didn't prepare them well enough to run a certain pace on their own, and 3) you're not teaching them how to compete, just time trial.
Rabbits are a thing because they help people run faster, regardless of whether you're going for a world record, a conference qualifier, or a PR. I think most people on letsrun should understand wanting to run fast...
Why's everyone talking about reliving "the glory days"? Rabbiting is about helping the athlete(s), isn't that part of the coach's job? If there's no one else who can do it then why not the coach? The coach actually racing is a totally different issue because the focus is no longer on the athletes.
(1) Sometimes there aren't races available nearby with appropriate competition.
(2) Since when is the goal to train athletes to run fast "on their own"?
(3) Well that might be true if the coach paces all of their races, but if it's only occasionally when there isn't good competition and the athlete needs a fast time then what's the issue?
Acceptable: yes. Allowed by the NCAA: haven't heard of anyone getting in trouble so I guess so. Violates the NCAA rulebook: maybe, but who cares.
Silly rabbit wrote:
you misunderstood wrote:He didn't run the race, he simply cheered for his athletes:
http://www.allfancydress.com/images/products/zoom/Bunny-Costume-1.jpgIs it acceptable for a rabbit to act as a coach?
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50e66e41e4b0955e45fb858c/5256e829e4b00554214e31e7/5256e83de4b02768cf847b62/1381427268380/Peta-181-Edit.jpg
This is why I love LR. Well played sir, well played indeed.
You guys are overanalyzing things.
The coach who works out with his team is often doing it to help the team out or get a better sense of coaching.
I used to have a coach who ran workouts with us occasionally and it was great. He was right there coaching while running the workouts. He wasn't trying to hammer us but instead would make comments mid workout and adjust things based on how we were feeling.
For our top guys, he'd occasionally jump in to take over the leading duties if he really wanted them to nail a workout.
He even rabbitted a 4min mile for us through 1200m.
It was cool. Helped the team out and it was done in an altruistic way. It wasn't reliving glory days, but it gave him a much better feel for how we were running then sending us off on our mile repeat and only seeing part of it on the XC course.
