Move over Bernard Lagat, Russia's Vyacheslav Shabunin set 2 Masters World Records last weekend at 800 and 1500 (45+)

Golf Clap wrote:

Russian dopers now pretty much own the AG record books for both genders 40-50.

Thank god Lagat never tested positive.....

Oh wait...

yyy wrote:

nice analysis! thanks!!

I think you are on PEDs.

"3:58.15i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/20/94 @Allston

4:01.39 Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/26/93 @New York

4:01.62 Vyacheslav Shabunin (40) 8/21/10 @Finland

4:02.53 David Moorcroft(40) 6/19/93 @Belfast

4:03.28i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/06/94 @Fairfax

4:04.55i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/04/94 @New York

4:04.98 Jim Sorensen (40) 7/06/07 @Lisle

4:05.27 Jim Sorensen (40) 6/27/07 @Bloomington

4:05.51i Tony Young (42) 3/05/05 @Seattle

4:05.95i Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/05/93 @New York

4:06.39i Tony Young (41) 2/14/04 @Seattle

4:06.7?? Larry Almberg (43) 7/29/90 @New York

4:07.14i Tony Young (41) 1/31/04 @Seattle

4:07.25i Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/07/93 @Fairfax

4:07.25 Tony Young (41) 6/14/03 @Seattle"

master of puppets wrote:

Those are age group records, not Masters records.

Doesn't the Masters group start at age 35 by some standards?

So Lagat's recent times wouldn't be Masters records either.

fred wrote:

"3:58.15i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/20/94 @Allston

4:01.39 Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/26/93 @New York

4:01.62 Vyacheslav Shabunin (40) 8/21/10 @Finland

4:02.53 David Moorcroft(40) 6/19/93 @Belfast

4:03.28i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/06/94 @Fairfax

4:04.55i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/04/94 @New York

4:04.98 Jim Sorensen (40) 7/06/07 @Lisle

4:05.27 Jim Sorensen (40) 6/27/07 @Bloomington

4:05.51i Tony Young (42) 3/05/05 @Seattle

4:05.95i Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/05/93 @New York

4:06.39i Tony Young (41) 2/14/04 @Seattle

4:06.7?? Larry Almberg (43) 7/29/90 @New York

4:07.14i Tony Young (41) 1/31/04 @Seattle

4:07.25i Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/07/93 @Fairfax

4:07.25 Tony Young (41) 6/14/03 @Seattle"

3:58.79 Anthony Whiteman SB V40 M 40 13.11.71 Shaftesbury Barnet

utter nonsense

you need incredible speed to finish a 3'26+ with a 53.5 or an accelerating last 800 of 1'46+ in a 3'34+

no

all you know is that asbel bothers to run 1 or 2 top-field 800 in a year for variety & we therefore have some clue about his 800

bernie never ran an 800 in his 3'26+ year !

he ran a 1'46+ in april in his 3'27 year which was a nonsense because in '09 he was a 3'32+ guy & definitely 1500/5k type & still managed a 1'46+ !!!

bernie was a faster runner than asbel at all distances, not something i woud say about hicham who probably wasn't as quick at 800 but still likely very close to 1'42-flat

never registered his name

did he run 1'42 or 3'27 at his peak

because bernie is an elite & i quoted his elite best

what is this whiteman's best ever 800 to compare to elite 800 guys ???

whiteman ran a 1:45.

back to shabunin. according to this website

(http://www.bestroadraces.com/12fasttimes.php?so=MARATHON)

shabunin lived in new york in 2012 and ran a marathon in 2:25 in detroit at the age of 43y. that´s a pretty impressive endurance for this middle distance guy who recently set 3 world records (m45+, 800m, 1500m, 3000m).

-------------------------------------------------

Whiteman ran faster than Lagat for 800m

Kiprop ran faster than Lagat running 1:43 numerous times without looking for excuses like the ones you keep finding for Lagat

'you need incredible speed to finish a 3'26+ with a 53.5 or an accelerating last 800 of 1'46+ in a 3'34+'

No you need good speed and incredible endurance.

Remember Kenyans lie about their age so Lagat is likely 45 and has ran those times already.

Lagat didn't do anything at the junior level so there wouldn't have been a need to fake his age then.

He ran 3:37.7 at age 21 which isn't great even for a junior and was too old to be in the junior category.

And he didn't improve on that time until he was 23, almost 24.

Maybe if he didn't go to a US college he could have been kept under wraps age-wise until he was 24 and then they could have altered his birth date by 5 years.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'you need incredible speed to finish a 3'26+ with a 53.5 or an accelerating last 800 of 1'46+ in a 3'34+'

No you need good speed and incredible endurance.

very true.

bernie´s endurance is superb, this matches up easily to those who have a better 800m pr. it´s this endurance that gives this finishing kick.

indeed it´s a little bit dangerous for 1500m runners to be focused on super fast 800m results. what you win on the swings you lose on the roundabouts.

you are offering 1'45 as some sort of of notable time ???

william chirchir, a 3'29.2 contemporary/team-mate of bernie's coudn't carry his jockstrap & ran 1'43.3 !

baala who had never run a serious elite 800 in his life until last race off '02 ran 1'43.1 !!!

he was a pure 1500 guy at the time with 3'32sb

nonsense

asbel runs 1 or 2 elite field 800s/year which is few

the only reason he does so is because he is so far from 1500wr, that he probably thinks some 800s woud sharpen his speed & help him get closer to 3'26.0

bernie had no need whatsoever to look for more speed as 53.5 finish in a 3'26+ & an accelerating 1'46+ in a 3'34+ was more than enough speed for a small guy trying to break 3'26

he clearly needed more endurance to find those few tenth for the 1500wr as clearly 7'33 then pb was a pathetic endurance indicator

utter nonsense

what part of 3'26+ he ran don't you comprehend ???

there are dozens of elite milers who run 70 - 100 miles/ week & have best endurance imaginable for a miler but can hardly break 3'30 or even, never will

see ovett who had 2 mile wr & therefore immense endurance for a miler of the era, but even his "legendary" speed coudn't get him to crack 3'30

so what on earth does that tell you about the speed of a guy who has run 3'26+ ???

in a few decades or so, the 1500wr will be maybe 3'23/3'24

a guy running this then may never have run a serious 800 in his life & have something like a 1'46 early season as career pb

are you still going to believe your nonsense that this 3'23/3'24 guy only had 1'46 speed at his 3'23/3'24 peak ???

charly horse wrote:very true.

bernie´s endurance is superb, this matches up easily to those who have a better 800m pr. it´s this endurance that gives this finishing kick

you do know that bernie's 3k pb when he ran 3'26+ was 7'33.5 for 5th in saidi-sief's 7'25 race ?!

a race bernie ran flat-out & described at the time as "hardest of my life"

is ~ 7'33 endurance "superb" for a guy who runs 3'26+ considering another 3'26 guy showed 7'23 endurance in '99 ???

ventolin^3 wrote:

you do know that bernie's 3k pb when he ran 3'26+ was 7'33.5 for 5th in saidi-sief's 7'25 race ?!

a race bernie ran flat-out & described at the time as "hardest of my life"

is ~ 7'33 endurance "superb" for a guy who runs 3'26+ considering another 3'26 guy showed 7'23 endurance in '99 ???

yes, of course!

it´s always a little bit vague to have a look just at the naked numbers. whatever happened during a race, preparation for it in the weeks before, form on the day, motivation, weather conditions, personal preference, purpose of the race - so many influencing variables and we don´t know the impact on the athlet for sure. will a 7:25-runner always beat others in a 1500m race who are slower at 3k-races? no. by the way: ali saidi-sief, 5k pb:12:50, bernie: 12:53...

7:33 reflects plenty of endurance. it means that the athlet is properly trained.

==========================================================

No, I say Lagat could run have 1:44 for 800m. Your time of 1:41 is ridiculous

=====================================================

it hugely depends upon the quality of the 1500 guys in the 1500 field

saidi-sief jogged that race to ~ 900 out at ~ 7'30 pace & destroyed the field with a huge kick from there

he was in more like 7'22/7'23 shape if that race had been flat-out from gun like komen got lucky with in his 7'20, albeit that was unrested & 1st lap was suicidal

a "pure" 7'25 guy, whose best distance is 3k, shoud still be able to go ~ 3'29/3'30 off his 7'25

if the 1500 field contains a 3'28/7'35 guy, then the 3k ability of either becomes irrelevant

the 3'28 guy shoud win that 1500 any which the race is run providing best possible race

learn to check some dates

saidi-sief ran 12'50 in same year as his 7'25, so in ~ same shape in both

bernie when he ran 7'33 for 5th behind him had a then 13'23pb !!!

he ran 12'53 career pb 11y after that 7'33

no

it doesn't when history's only other actual 3'26 guy had 7'23 endurance

do you seriously think 3'26+ is same calibre as 7'33 ???

no

it means that the 3'26+ has no proper over-distance ability whatsoever

any 3'26+ guy shoud be able to run 7'33 off just his 1500 training & that's all that that 7'33 shows, namely bernie ran a 3k time of 7'33 off no serious over-distance ability whatsoever, albeit "only" a 3'28+ guy that year

that means he was much more geared for speed when he ran 3'26+

hicham ran 3'26 off incredible endurance

( & of course very good speed as impossible to run 3'26 without )

as 7'23 shows

( i saw full race on tv - he shouda gone 7'20/7'21 with better pacing )

bernie also ran 3'26 but his 3k around then was crap at 7'33, for 5th behind saidi-sief's 7'25

( which was jog to 800 out at ~ 7'30 pace )

therefore, it is a logical assumption bernie had superior 400/800 speed to hicham to get his 3'26, as clearly his over-distance was rubbish compared to hicham

same argument for noah as bernie

( noah had crap over-distance at 4'50 )

i think both those kenyans best distance wouda been ~ 1k, but both good for 1'41-mid at their 1500/mile best

however, there is no gold for a 1k, so they had to run 1500

i still feel that noah wouda cruised to 800 gold in sydney as he was probably at worst in 1'42-flat shape, assuming slight tail-off in form from '99

both bernie & hicham couda won 800 gold in athens, but bernie not interested & hicham wanted 5k gold

this is not very different from '88 when an injured aouita won 800 bronze & certainly at least silver if fit

aouita never ran 3'26 or 3'43