Nice try. If that were the case they ought to just leech some of that blood out since it's obviously dead weight.
Nice try. If that were the case they ought to just leech some of that blood out since it's obviously dead weight.
fred wrote:
Ramzi went from 3:39 to 3:30 in 11 months on CERA.
He sure did
The approximate performance gains possible using EPO at the elite level on the track are well known
3seconds for 1500
5 seconds for 3000
10seconds for 5000
20 seconds for 10000m
Ballpark
What are the ballpark gains for HGH, SARM's, designer steroids, etc?
Coach.. wrote:
fred wrote:Ramzi went from 3:39 to 3:30 in 11 months on CERA.
He sure did
The approximate performance gains possible using EPO at the elite level on the track are well known
3seconds for 1500
5 seconds for 3000
10seconds for 5000
20 seconds for 10000m
Ballpark
If El G & Lagat were on EPO, imagine how fast they could have run
BLAST FROM THE PAST wrote:
Coach.. wrote:He sure did
The approximate performance gains possible using EPO at the elite level on the track are well known
3seconds for 1500
5 seconds for 3000
10seconds for 5000
20 seconds for 10000m
Ballpark
If El G & Lagat were on EPO, imagine how fast they could have run
Agreed
It would have been interesting to see the outcome if someone had persuaded El guerrouj to try try the stuff
Renato Canova wrote:
For example, now I have the opportunity to follow Kenenisa Bekele. Following him, I can say his main quality is an unbelievable ability to relax completely his body (that means his mind too) also when his effort is maximal. This is the factor allowing him to do the difference, because people cam be surprised to know how little mileage he used, during his best years (about 120-130 km per week when he was the best in 5000 and 10000m).
Renato, can you give any details on how Bekele trained when he was a 5k/10k runner? That volume is surprisingly low compared to people like Komen, Geb, and Farah who ran / run 120ish.
Thanks
science harder next time wrote:
Good science, bad science wrote:Do you agree or disagree with Paula's test results?
If your theory cannot reconcile her test results with the fact that runners do improve by taking EPO, that is not our problem.
Look up the word theory.
fred wrote:
Ramzi went from 3:39 to 3:30 in 11 months on CERA.
That's slower than the best runner should have been running in 2008 isn't it?
With or without drugs.
Steve Cram was the first runner under 3.30 back in 1985. He wasn't using EPO or blood transfusions or any illegal substance.
Gary Oldman wrote:
Good science, bad science wrote:He has to force his cardiovascular system to the limits to try and beat you. He fails, you are running sub maximally and he is easy prey.
Why are you running sub maximally?
The concept of winning or losing has little to do with running at your personal maximum effort.
Tergat and Geb were both all out in Sydney.
Look at the Conconi curve. It's like an inverse of the lactate curve, where at close to maximal effort you can get faster and faster up to your maximum velocity, if you train right. With the top athletes they can reach this level at 6 mmols of lactate in a race, whereas in training a few weeks earlier they might have been at 10 or 12 mmols but without the same speed endurance.
half logic wrote:
Renato,
Thanks for sharing your theory. If EPO does not help Marathoning why are there widespread reports of increased power output by the top Tour Cyclists when EPO use became widespread?
I understand that many athletes try techniques to improve performance that are unproven. However, I do not understand why pro athletes would risk getting caught if EPO did not improve their performance.
Can you comment on this?
Cycling is a lot different than comparison to a marathoner. Marathoning is a relatively one dimensional training and racing activity compared to cycling.
A tour cyclist has to use all systems very well and recover very well. Cyclists take/took many different things. The era of EPO was in the early mid-90s. human Growth hormone and steroid derivatives and other things probably accounts for successes in the 2000's (Indurain/lance era).
By the time Lance was competing, EPO use was negated since your hematocrit was tested and you could get to that relatively low level with altitude tents.
Good science, bad science wrote:
Gary Oldman wrote:Why are you running sub maximally?
The concept of winning or losing has little to do with running at your personal maximum effort.
Tergat and Geb were both all out in Sydney.
Look at the Conconi curve. It's like an inverse of the lactate curve, where at close to maximal effort you can get faster and faster up to your maximum velocity, if you train right. With the top athletes they can reach this level at 6 mmols of lactate in a race, whereas in training a few weeks earlier they might have been at 10 or 12 mmols but without the same speed endurance.
I have never seen someone have a lactate test done in the last 25m of a race.
Neither have you.
lotsof other things wrote:
half logic wrote:Renato,
Thanks for sharing your theory. If EPO does not help Marathoning why are there widespread reports of increased power output by the top Tour Cyclists when EPO use became widespread?
I understand that many athletes try techniques to improve performance that are unproven. However, I do not understand why pro athletes would risk getting caught if EPO did not improve their performance.
Can you comment on this?
Cycling is a lot different than comparison to a marathoner. Marathoning is a relatively one dimensional training and racing activity compared to cycling.
A tour cyclist has to use all systems very well and recover very well. Cyclists take/took many different things. The era of EPO was in the early mid-90s. human Growth hormone and steroid derivatives and other things probably accounts for successes in the 2000's (Indurain/lance era).
By the time Lance was competing, EPO use was negated since your hematocrit was tested and you could get to that relatively low level with altitude tents.
Alititude tents can take guys from 35-40 to 49.9? I don't think so. Not to mention, altitude tents hurt performance and slow recovery, unless you're in them 16+ hours a day. Cyclists are still getting popped with EPO.
hahaha youre an idiot. PLEASE do some more research on human physiology
youre another drooling idiot who thinks lactic acid is the only f*ckin factor determining performance. you have so much to learn. theres actually strong evidence that lactic acid is almost completely irrelevant to EVERYTHING. also, oxygen isnt JUST used for glycogen, its also used for free fatty acids, f*cktard
oh yeah, well steroids dont make people stronger because strength is improved always when you lift so steroids dont do anything.... thats how you sound. you sound dumb
"I don't think EPO helps as much as people think it does because people are not running long distances at the upper end of their V02max bell curve. This should suggest that EPO isn't necessary because people aren't using the amount of oxygen available to them anyway." (quote)
you do realize if your V02 max is higher and youre running at say 70% V02, you are now using 70% of a HIGHER number. its relative. Christ does anyone on this board actually THINK?
Jack wrote
"Alititude tents can take guys from 35-40 to 49.9? I don't think so. Not to mention, altitude tents hurt performance and slow recovery, unless you're in them 16+ hours a day. Cyclists are still getting popped with EPO."
That number is way low. Only maybve your mom has a 'crit that low.
Here are much more likely numbers. EPO use stayed high in non=drug tested pops, elites have been tested with EPO test for a long time.
here are better crit numbers of elites in the late 90s.
This procedure was repeated for three consecutive competitive seasons During this three-year period, the collected data showed a significant lowering of the average hematocrit level. In fact, from the first February sampling to the third February sampling, the average hematocrit value for the male population dropped from 48.04 +/- 2.36 to 46.33 +/- 1.91,
The dominance of East African runners has a lot to do with participation (and not of 25-40 year-old female joggers).
That's my theory.
How many young Kenyans participated in track when Wolde or Rono were at their best compared to today?
It might help if you actually presented some lactate curves showing no difference with EPO. That would be good science. Since you seem to prefer anecdote, here's one man's experience.
doubtful placebo wrote:
It might help if you actually presented some lactate curves showing no difference with EPO. That would be good science. Since you seem to prefer anecdote, here's one man's experience.
http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Drug-Test.html
This^^^^^
The OP hasn't shown compelling data to back his/her assertions. I think this is either the work of a troll or a young and very enthusiastic academic who is missing the big picture and ignoring evidence in an effort to sing the praises of a his/her new idea that is going to explain endurance performance -which he/she hasn't really even described.
While Renato and the OP and others may be correct in their theories that EPO benefits for certain athletes and events may be overstated, there is a mountain of evidence, backed by clearly established biological mechanisms that support EPO as a PED.