Rita Jeptoo's B sample confirms positive doping test

All this says is that Rita Jeptoo used PED's. It doesn't say that Kenyans have a widespread PED issue. My guess? No more, no less that any other player in the game.

Ban her for life. The punishment isn't enough to send the message because athletes keep on using.

I think this discussion is getting oversimplified. There are two lines of thought. 1 Were the times of the 90s and early 00s a result of EPO use by the very best? 2. Are there a high number of runners achieving very good results (12:50s, sub 27, 59 and 2:05). The first may never be answered. I hope they were clean. Maybe people are just too intimidated to go for it now. To the second point, Rupp, Solinsky and everyone else are running way slower than the world records. 12:55 and 26:45 are nowhere near 12:37 and 26:17. They are a few second faster than Moorecroft or ondieki. Right now, i do not suspect a whole lot of track guys to be cheating. Maybe that is naive I think the number of people crushing marathons and half marathons is hard to believe. And that is where the money is. I think some of the great times are clean and others are dirty. I know the tactics have changed but the 2:04s should be pretty rare. I can't pick specific people as dirty but I will not be too surprised by more bad tests.

So how many people reading this think there is widespread state of the art testing in Kenya??

What would you do if your floor was dirt and your family was starving?

The bottom line: Kenya is FAR from clean.....

Testing? wrote:

So how many people reading this think there is widespread state of the art testing in Kenya??

What would you do if your floor was dirt and your family was starving?

The bottom line: Kenya is FAR from clean.....

I am not disagreeing with but I would stay away for the dirt floor / starving language. I think there are clean runners and many dirty ones in the marathon. Look at the IAAF tables. Densimo ran 2:06:50 in 1988 and that record stood for 10 years. Now Densimo is 118th person with many having run faster twice or more. It is hard to fathom how all that happened in the last 4-5 years.

I didn't ask for hypotheticals, but real world examples. If it were white Russians, I would also ask if there is an infrastructure behind, and for other evidence. I tend to draw my conclusions based on known information, and when it is not known, I ask for information.The fact is that white people got slower in the 90's, despite the availability and untestability of EPO. Why was EPO globally effective in cycling, yet so selective in athletics, favoring the 100 pound altitude dwellers in East Africa? Maybe your faith in EPO as an explanation needs further thought.You introduced the terms "overwhelming evidence" and "widespread". Surely you have legitimate reasons for using those terms. Or is it just rhetoric? It's curious you interpret my request to explain yourself as a "tearful defense".If there is overwhelming evidence, can you just list the top 5 important ones? Will you even say one, or will you interpret my questions as an attack and counter attack me again?If we analyze times and records from the 90's, we see that it comes from about 4 or 5 athletes. Hardly compelling defense of the use of the term "widespread".

trollism wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Can you give some concrete examples of overwhelming evidence dating back to the 90s? Can anyone?

Can you also quantify or clarify what you think "widespread" means?

If it were Russians (white people?) who suddenly went crazy on the world records at the birth of EPO (I mean early 90s) you wouldn't have a doubt.

Just because it's Africans you're still tearfully defending them.

The 90s was the EPO era, since the test things became more difficult but still doable.

African distance runners have benefited throughout this time.

This is still unfounded speculation. Is that the best you can do? Everyone had access to EPO. Why didn't it help everyone?

Dey all be dopin wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

How does that make sense? East African runners had better doctors than the rest of the world?

LOL

Typical disingenuous garbage. The drugs are supplied BY people like Dr. Rosa, other nefarious characters. And EPO isn't that expensive. Hell, it's available from "sponsors" on bodybuilding sites. LOL

Doping is about a culture, not just availability. The average decent western 19-20-year old distance runner is likely from a relatively financially secure backround, and is embedded in the collegiate system which lacks the immediate pressure to perform for money, and does a decent job at discouraging drug use. Their Kenyan counterpart is involved with corrupt coaches and agents who are waving the prospect of being set for life financially within a few years if he/she complies with their "system", which includes methodolgy to administer drugs and avoid testing or detection.

In Kenya it is a black market system, yet is as effective (or more) than the state-compliant system in the Eastern bloc.

Right. Many times the victor would still be from E. Africa, but they probably wouldn't go 1,2,3 in every major marathon for 30 years straight. We'd have ppl. from Japan/Europe/US/South America/etc. win a few. It's difficult to speculate because adding drugs to the equation complicates the whole scene. How many ppl. from outside E. Africa decided not to partake in running b/c their times could not compare to what the E. Africans on drugs were doing?

Why was EPO globally effective in cycling, yet so selective in athletics,

But it wasn't globally effective in cycling so your argument is moot. Some cyclists responded better than others. Everyone knows this.

Are you saying this positive isn't significant?

How many Chicago marathon results stand since 2008? How many Boston results? This was a top runner and this is big news. You want to sweep it under the rug? Why?

rekrunner wrote:

If there is an iceberg, why didn't Hajo Seppelt, or anyone else, find it yet? It could be an iceberg, or it could be a recent phenomena, local to some mediocre athletes.

[/quote]

First, there have been over 20 Kenyans, including their stars, who tested positive for all sorts of PEDs ranging from steroids to rhEPO over a recent 2-year period. Try to wrap your head around what would be going on on these boards if over 20 American distance runners were busted for PEDs over a 2-year period.

Second, Seppelt has also revealed that of there were highly suspicious blood test results from at least 150 athletes listed by the IAAF who should have been target tested and never were. Although the names of these athletes remain anonymous, the breakdown by nation shows that there are 58 athletes from Russia in first place, and then you have 25 athletes from Kenya in second place - this is over double the number of athlete names from well established doping nations such as Spain (12 athletes) and Morocco (10 athletes).

That's a fantastic explanation, but brings no new facts regarding East Africans in the 90's. You've just added more opinion, speculations, allegations, and some new novel theories. Are you able to follow up these claims with some external research?

Anonymous Pseudonym wrote:

Doping is about a culture, not just availability. The average decent western 19-20-year old distance runner is likely from a relatively financially secure backround, and is embedded in the collegiate system which lacks the immediate pressure to perform for money, and does a decent job at discouraging drug use. Their Kenyan counterpart is involved with corrupt coaches and agents who are waving the prospect of being set for life financially within a few years if he/she complies with their "system", which includes methodolgy to administer drugs and avoid testing or detection.

In Kenya it is a black market system, yet is as effective (or more) than the state-compliant system in the Eastern bloc.

And 10 from Ethiopia

Ethiopia has zero testing and coincidentally nobody from Ethiopia ever gets busted despite their record on the world scene

No. IT IS A VERY PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION, AND WE ARE TIRED OF YOU, JEF WIGAND and the rest, being the Kenyan apologists coming back here and arguing over and over and over about it!Even after Jeptoo proved you clowns wrong and got busted, you still can't let it be with your ridiculous straw man arguments. Just let it be. It was WADA that said something to the effect that Kenya is a den of doping culture. Finally, finally, something may be done about it. Canova at least had the sense to stay away from the forum, until he is ready to come back and publicly apologize and admit how egregiously wrong he was about it all. You guys would be better served doing the same, OR JUST STAY AWAY!

Are you really following the discussion? I was responding to statements made about East Africans in the 90s. I'm not talking about Rita's positive. Curiously, despite the subject line, no one is really talking about Rita in this thread.In cycling, Americans, English, Germans, French, Spanish, Italians, Khazaks, etc., ..., were implicated in doping. This is what I mean by global. In cycling, EPO's effectiveness knew no national or regional boundaries. Compare that to suggestions in this thread that EPO was the ONLY cause of East African dominance for decades since the early 1990s. I find that incredible. In Athletics, EPO stops at the borders of the Rift Valley, with some leakage into Ethiopia? Does no one see the obvious contradiction here?But lets answer some of your questions. Regarding Rita's positive, It's significant, but what does it signify? Was she acting alone? Was it a small group linked to a rogue doctor/agent/coach? Is Rosa involved? Are words, like "rampant" and "widespread" now justified? Until we get more information, she is just an isolated case.

not the race radio wrote:

Why was EPO globally effective in cycling, yet so selective in athletics,

But it wasn't globally effective in cycling so your argument is moot. Some cyclists responded better than others. Everyone knows this.

Are you saying this positive isn't significant?

How many Chicago marathon results stand since 2008? How many Boston results? This was a top runner and this is big news. You want to sweep it under the rug? Why?

just sayin wrote:

Ethiopia has zero testing

But hey, what are facts.

go away wrote:

No. IT IS A VERY PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION, AND WE ARE TIRED OF YOU, JEF WIGAND and the rest, being the Kenyan apologists coming back here and arguing over and over and over about it!

Sorry you don't care for a discussion of facts.

I'm only asking to ground the plausible explanation to reality. I'm looking for something stronger plausibility. If there is overwhelming evidence, surely it's not asking too much, to provide some of it. "Anonymous Pseudonym" just regurgitated some popular mythologies, and added a couple of fabrications, I guess for originality.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

just sayin wrote:

Ethiopia has zero testing

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=9c151f8b-b420-41b8-82db-d3412fad6497.pdf&urlslug=The%20IAAF%20Doping%20Control%20Programme%2C%202013%20%E2%80%93%20List%20of%20Tests%20on%20Registered%20Testing%20Pool%20Athletes

But hey, what are facts.

They're not being tested in Ethiopia

just sayin wrote:

They're not being tested in Ethiopia

So for example:

Ayele Abshero ran 2 races in all of 2013 but was tested 4+ times.

Deressa Chisma ran one race in 2013 but was also tested 4+ times. These people train in Ethiopia.

Explain that away. Are you going to contend that Chisma had four or more tests at his lone competition in 2013?