said88 wrote: the only challenger really is Paavo Nurmididn't Zatopek "triple" at the 1952 Olympics?
said88 wrote: the only challenger really is Paavo Nurmididn't Zatopek "triple" at the 1952 Olympics?
MarathonMind wrote:
said88 wrote: the only challenger really is Paavo Nurmididn't Zatopek "triple" at the 1952 Olympics?
Yes, for sure. And this triple is - for me - the main reason that Zatopek should be ranked behind the 3 mentioned athletes as the Nr. 4 all-time (if we want to do such a ranking at all). But his overall career-record is far beyond Gebrselassie's and Bekele's. Just an example: he needed several years to finally (close to the end of his career) to better the 5000m WR of Gunder Hägg (by just a second). Very soon after this the record was bettered several times by huge margins. Or his achievements in the shorter events: he never ever had the chance to just excel in any way over 1500m - no chance.
But he was the undisputed king in the 10000m for several years and his Olympic triple is also absolutely unique.
I wish I have met him in person - he must have been great person, wonderful character I think.
Yes -- Geb did an amazing thing.And Bekele improved it marginally.I'm sorry -- what is your point?
coach.......... wrote:
Throw in gebs longevity
And he took almost 20 seconds off the 5000m record
You do realise he smashed the record down from 12-58 to 12-39 almost on his own
That is epic world record breaking
Bekele improved it marginally
Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:
agip wrote:well apology is the wrong word, but it would be appropriate for odok and stinky pinky to at least acknowledge their errors and explain their new thinking.
oh agip, your reading comprehension is poor (and generally I like your posts, but in this case, it IS true)-
Odok and stinky pinky made 2 basic assertions. They were:
*Bekele is the GOAT *distance runner*, (they never said that he was already the Greatest MARATHONER of all time. never) AND....
* Based on the above opinion and his recent 2:05 marathon debut in less then perfect conditions (course, pacers, slight hamstring issue),combined with his outkicking of Farah at the 1/2 marathon, there is a very good chance that he will threaten or break the WR in the marathon in the near future.
That's it. And that view is apparently held by none other than Renato Canova, and they were agreeing with him.
So what errors did they make??
They made no specific predictions about the Chicago race. Did they?
Do you care to now "to acknowledge your error" (stating that they were wrong, about something that is not yet settled) in your above quoted statement? Really you should (this was not a: will 'Bekele set the WR in the marathon AT CHICAGO?' thread. No. It was a: Will Bekele set/threaten (i.e., run at least very low 2:03) the WR in the marathon in the near future? thread. AND: is Bekele the GOAT distance runner? thread. You answered a definitive "NO" to the first question, they answered "YES." You seemed to agree with them on the 2nd question. The first question will not be settled for several more years. You jumped the gun: Premature Celebration.)
I said Bekele is GOAT. I also said that I would bump this thread WHEN Bekele EVENTUALLY breaks the WR.
Many of you took the easy bet that KB would not break the WR this last weekend. How safe.
I don't have the motivation to split hairs with unrepentant dipshits in this thread. T-Rex has some serious patience to keep engaging people on this topic.
Geb is GOAT until Bekele runs sub-2:04.
stinky pinky wrote:
Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:oh agip, your reading comprehension is poor (and generally I like your posts, but in this case, it IS true)-
Odok and stinky pinky made 2 basic assertions. They were:
*Bekele is the GOAT *distance runner*, (they never said that he was already the Greatest MARATHONER of all time. never) AND....
* Based on the above opinion and his recent 2:05 marathon debut in less then perfect conditions (course, pacers, slight hamstring issue),combined with his outkicking of Farah at the 1/2 marathon, there is a very good chance that he will threaten or break the WR in the marathon in the near future.
That's it. And that view is apparently held by none other than Renato Canova, and they were agreeing with him.
So what errors did they make??
They made no specific predictions about the Chicago race. Did they?
Do you care to now "to acknowledge your error" (stating that they were wrong, about something that is not yet settled) in your above quoted statement? Really you should (this was not a: will 'Bekele set the WR in the marathon AT CHICAGO?' thread. No. It was a: Will Bekele set/threaten (i.e., run at least very low 2:03) the WR in the marathon in the near future? thread. AND: is Bekele the GOAT distance runner? thread. You answered a definitive "NO" to the first question, they answered "YES." You seemed to agree with them on the 2nd question. The first question will not be settled for several more years. You jumped the gun: Premature Celebration.)
I said Bekele is GOAT. I also said that I would bump this thread WHEN Bekele EVENTUALLY breaks the WR.
Many of you took the easy bet that KB would not break the WR this last weekend. How safe.
I don't have the motivation to split hairs with unrepentant dipshits in this thread. T-Rex has some serious patience to keep engaging people on this topic.
that's it? that's all you say? after your insulting me and my reasoning ability and my knowledge of track and field? that's all you say?
weak sauce - extremely weak.
but good on you for showing up again.
Whatever you seem to think the point is, the only question I responded to was, which is more impressive:1) Geb's one 1500m world indoors title + two marathon world records2) Bekele's 12 World Cross Country titlesMy point is that 1500m indoors is so unimpressive, that it's not worth the words to defend it. The comparison reduces to two (non-competitive) world records versus 12 (highly competitive) world cross country victories.Even if you want to include 1500m indoors, despite it's low value, you can add one non-competitive global indoor title.Of course Geb is impressive, when you start to include other factors. But despite your insistence, all these other factors are not the point, but rather beside the point I contested.And the fact that you have to appeal to other outside factors, like Geb's longevity, somehow confirms that the original argument was weak.If I had to score these events in units of impressiveness:One 1500m indoor global title = 1 pointOne non-competitive pace-aided marathon time trial world record = 10 pointsOne competitive non-paced tactical world cross country event = 50 points
said88 wrote:
The exact opposite is true: 1500m(i) is contested every two years, the world XC champs was (in Gebrselassie's and Bekele's era) contested every year.
I don't think anyone thinks the 1500m World Indoor title is of higher value than the the world title in XC (long course). Has anyone said that? For sure the XC title is more important. But this was not the point at all.
Gebrselassie's times in the 1500m and the Marathon are not just a little bit better than Bekele's, but significant in both events: 0.59s and 1:04min - the first set indoors, which definitely is of a higher value than the same time outdoors (also maybe not by that much as all have thought). But that's not the main point. Gebrselassie has won a Global Title in the shorter event and has set two World Records in the longer. On the other side, Bekele has a 1/4 win loss record in the shorter event and never ranked under the top 20 in the longer. Yes, his marathon debut was very impressibe, but in these days it doesn't stand out in any way. The standard of the event just has improved enourmously in the last 10 years.
Just a question: if Gebrselassie would have won his debut in London in 2002 in - say - 2:05:30 (a WR). Would you also say Bekele's debut from Paris was more impressive?
Gebrselassie's success in the 1500m and in the Marathon (the combination) is absolutely unprecedented in the history of athletics. In combination with all the records like the Half-Marathon, he deserves a lot of respect, I would say. If Bekele has the same sort of capabilities (or even better) is not the point at all. So far he hasn't achieved a lot (relatively) over the two distances.
For me, this - in combination with all of Gebrselassie's achievements in between and the better win/loss record than Bekele and a career which lasted two full decades at or very close to the top - is enough that he still should be ranked ahead of Bekele. Others might differ, and that's also understandable.
One thing seems to be absolutely out of question (at least to me): we are talking about the two greatest distance runners in the history of athletics (the only challenger really is Paavo Nurmi, but the eras they competed are so different that an comparison is not very helpful at all).
eh, never mind, stinky. probably I was conflating your posts with odok's and t rex made some good points too.
rekrunner wrote:
Yes -- Geb did an amazing thing.
And Bekele improved it marginally.
I'm sorry -- what is your point?
coach.......... wrote:Throw in gebs longevity
And he took almost 20 seconds off the 5000m record
You do realise he smashed the record down from 12-58 to 12-39 almost on his own
That is epic world record breaking
Bekele improved it marginally
You first....
Bekele is hands down the GOAT at 4-12 km: 2 standing world records at 5 and 10 that bested Geb's, over a dozen WC and Olympic golds in xc and track over that range. Bekele does not quite match Geb at the shorter distances. It remains to be seen what he'll achieve in the marathon, but his debut and past history suggest he could set a WR. If he does, there's no question he gets the overall GOAT. If he retired today it's an unanswerable debate whether his 4-12 dominance trumps Gebs overall superior range or not. In either case we may never see their like again.
coach.......... wrote:
geb took almost 20 seconds off the 5000m
world record in the space of a few years
an incredible achievement given the stagnation prior to that point
some of you guys are not giving him full credit for his groundbreaking achievements when comparing him to bekele
You must understand that Gebreselassie ran at the era of Komen and Tergat who pushed him to these times. When Bekele ran his WRs there was no one else capable of these times. If there had been guys running 12:3? and challenging his world record he would have tried more and likely bettered both his records more.
rekrunner wrote:
Whatever you seem to think the point is, the only question I responded to was, which is more impressive:
1) Geb's one 1500m world indoors title + two marathon world records
2) Bekele's 12 World Cross Country titles
My point is that 1500m indoors is so unimpressive, that it's not worth the words to defend it. The comparison reduces to two (non-competitive) world records versus 12 (highly competitive) world cross country victories.
Even if you want to include 1500m indoors, despite it's low value, you can add one non-competitive global indoor title.
Of course Geb is impressive, when you start to include other factors. But despite your insistence, all these other factors are not the point, but rather beside the point I contested.
And the fact that you have to appeal to other outside factors, like Geb's longevity, somehow confirms that the original argument was weak.
If I had to score these events in units of impressiveness:
One 1500m indoor global title = 1 point
One non-competitive pace-aided marathon time trial world record = 10 points
One competitive non-paced tactical world cross country event = 50 points
Now Bekele's No. of World XC titles has improved to 12? Than I'm sure you also will add two more World outdoor titles for Gebrselassie.
For sure you are free to argue for the very high importance of Bekele's XC career. But with your point-system your surely making yourself looking absurd.
If I understand you correct, on your point basis, Bekele's efforts at the World XC champs is worth (at least) 550 (or 600?) points in comparison to Gebrselassie's 21 points out of his efforts over 1500m and the Marathon, Well, this sounds like the real solution. You got it!
I'm pretty sure you also have Paul Tergat way ahead of Gebrselassie in your ranking despite the fact that Gebrselassie has beaten Tergat in around 80% of there duels and that Gebrselassie has a better PB in every track and road event both have contested. But 250 points alone from XC probably hardly can be matched in your system by Gebrselassie.
To better the Marathon world record (for sure in a non-competitive pace-aided time trial) four times by significant margins and winning the 1500m world indoor title times several times surely is way inferior to winning one world cross country short title. At this point it seems to be better to stop trying to give serious arguments for my thinking.
cross country is competitive but not that prestigious compared to track
the facts in geb's favour are as follows:
1)GEB has unparalleled success from 1500m to marathon
a global 1500m title and a marathon world record
no athlete in the history of running has success at this range of distances
2) he completely obliterated distance records on the track
3)unparalleled unprecedented almost 20 year career at the very top
sure, bekele has the XC and the doubles and is the curent wr holder on track
but the above 3 points in gebs favour means he stands above bekele for now until bekele breaks the marathon record
stinky pinky wrote:
I said Bekele is GOAT. I also said that I would bump this thread WHEN Bekele EVENTUALLY breaks the WR.
Many of you took the easy bet that KB would not break the WR this last weekend. How safe.
I don't have the motivation to split hairs with unrepentant dipshits in this thread. T-Rex has some serious patience to keep engaging people on this topic.
Pretty much exactly how I've been feeling. When I started this thread this certainly wasn't the discussion I was going for, but MAJOR props to Rexing.
Again, the comparison made was Geb's 1500m(i), 2 marathon world records, versus Bekele's World cross-country titles, and the conclusion I disagreed with was that cross-country was less impressive.Of course both Bekele and Geb (and Tergat) did a lot of other impressive things, but in the scope of this narrow comparison, these impressive accomplishments are not "the point", but "beside" the point.As far as I know, Bekele has 12 golds, and 1 silver at World Cross Country. Geb has 1 indoor 1500m world title, and 2 marathon records. Geb's other World Titles, as impressive as they are, again, are out of scope. I do not deny that Geb's lifetime career is impressive, only that it should be considered more impressive, by virtue of 1500m indoors and 2 marathon world records, than Bekele's by virtue of World Cross Country titles.Change my arbitrary 50 points to 15, or even 10 -- the point still stands. Geb did not dominate the less competitive 1500m indoors, and the marathon (with non-competitive tailor made time trials), the way that Bekele dominated the much more competitive World Cross Country. If Geb had run 2:03:59 against Tergat, or Wanjiru, or Mutai, that would be more impressive, and score more arbitrary rekrunner points.The best argument for bringing up Geb's 1500m to marathon seems to be success on the world stage in the extreme range of the events (compared with Bekele's domination over the narrower range of 5K/10K/cross-country). This I will concede makes more sense, that Geb's demonstrated range from 1500m to marathon is more impressive than Bekele's demonstrated range for cross-country, plus an implied 5K/10K.But here again, if demonstrated range is the argument, we should also look outside cross-country at Bekele's 1500m and marathon performances. Geb and Bekele have about the same 1500m PB, and Geb has an advantage at the marathon distance. Bekele shows a very similar range, and if/when he lowers his marathon PB, the range argument would also diminish/dissappear. If Bekele debuted like Mo, with a 2:08, or like Zersaney Tadese, who hasn't quite figured out the marathon, it would be a different matter, but a 2:05 debut is very promising demonstration of the potential to equally follow in Geb's footsteps.
said88 wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Whatever you seem to think the point is, the only question I responded to was, which is more impressive:
1) Geb's one 1500m world indoors title + two marathon world records
2) Bekele's 12 World Cross Country titles
My point is that 1500m indoors is so unimpressive, that it's not worth the words to defend it. The comparison reduces to two (non-competitive) world records versus 12 (highly competitive) world cross country victories.
Even if you want to include 1500m indoors, despite it's low value, you can add one non-competitive global indoor title.
Of course Geb is impressive, when you start to include other factors. But despite your insistence, all these other factors are not the point, but rather beside the point I contested.
And the fact that you have to appeal to other outside factors, like Geb's longevity, somehow confirms that the original argument was weak.
If I had to score these events in units of impressiveness:
One 1500m indoor global title = 1 point
One non-competitive pace-aided marathon time trial world record = 10 points
One competitive non-paced tactical world cross country event = 50 points
Now Bekele's No. of World XC titles has improved to 12? Than I'm sure you also will add two more World outdoor titles for Gebrselassie.
For sure you are free to argue for the very high importance of Bekele's XC career. But with your point-system your surely making yourself looking absurd.
If I understand you correct, on your point basis, Bekele's efforts at the World XC champs is worth (at least) 550 (or 600?) points in comparison to Gebrselassie's 21 points out of his efforts over 1500m and the Marathon, Well, this sounds like the real solution. You got it!
MarathonMind wrote:Agree with most of what ventolin wrote except this:
"you can't just keep improving off better endurance"
because Radcliffe proved that aerobic potential (obviously) must work both ways- moving up or down the distances, since she ran 30:01 after her marathon debut
that 30'01 is misleading in terms of her previous 10ks
that 30'01 was a flat-out solo run from gun
her earler best 2 runs were
- 30:27.13 Paula Radcliffe 2 Sevilla 26.08.1999
that was the WC in brutal heat & mostly tactical as paula only really tried a hard push last few kms but was beaten by an effortless running wami
i'm sure she couda gone close to 30'10 that day in a cool, solo run
- 30:26.97 Paula Radcliffe 4 Sydney 30.09.2000
that race was a jog for huge parts but with a blistering last lap
i'm pretty sure tulu couda gone < < 30 that day in a paced TT & wami wouda been close behind
( tulu imo was very little different from dibaba/defar of recent years but she never chased the clock seriously - pretty sure she couda run the 5k field into the ground if she had decided to double as i'm pretty sure she was in 14'10/14'15 shape that meet )
paula wasn't brave enough to take it out from far enough out but i'm sure she couda gone 30'00/30'05 in a flat-out TT
paula really wasn't much different over 10k in '02 to '00 but in the former she coud blast it from the gun with no fear of the field
ventolin^3 wrote:
paula wasn't brave enough to take it out from far enough out but i'm sure she couda gone 30'00/30'05 in a flat-out TT
Great prediction about a 30:01 runner! Wow!
And it's Paula, with a capital P.
coach........ wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Yes -- Geb did an amazing thing.
And Bekele improved it marginally.
I'm sorry -- what is your point?
You first....
Neener, neener, neener!
wthrwtehn wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:paula wasn't brave enough to take it out from far enough out but i'm sure she couda gone 30'00/30'05 in a flat-out TT
Great prediction about a 30:01 runner! Wow!
And it's Paula, with a capital P.
Miss Radcliffe...if you're nasty.