Long run pace?

You have to "earn" faster or harder training. You can't increase you long run pace suddenly and expect faster times because of that.

It's this American mindset that you can earn fast races by training very hard. It's totally wrong.

I'm sorry for this unpolite reply to crete, but I think it is necessary to first run fast(er) and then train hard. If you are 17 and you do 50 miles a week you really can run that long run "slow". At this moment of time an increase in the pace would be nonsense.

If we were talking about a 25 year old guy that runs 100 miles/week and is in his tenth year of running, without making much progress, then we might talk about an increase of long run pace...

I know people who are bragging about their long run pace and they got overtrained and never became fast again. Also, they have never been faster than me.

my advice wrote:

You have to "earn" faster or harder training. You can't increase you long run pace suddenly and expect faster times because of that.

It's this American mindset that you can earn fast races by training very hard. It's totally wrong.

You are correct. You need to leave your work-outs feeling pleasantly fatigued. Not utterly spent.

As Renato Canova has pointed out, Americans have no patience when it comes to long term development. Most development comes from smart training and avoiding injuries, not training your butt off and needing to take breaks constantly due to overtraining.

sea ice wrote:

As Renato Canova has pointed out, Americans have no patience when it comes to long term development.

+1

sea ice wrote:

[quote]my advice wrote:

As Renato Canova has pointed out, Americans have no patience when it comes to long term development. Most development comes from smart training and avoiding injuries, not training your butt off and needing to take breaks constantly due to overtraining.

These boards are full of people bragging about their "easy" pace. The only question anyone needs to answer about their easy pace is, "does it feel easy"? The rest is just little boys comparing their tiny penises.

kod3200 wrote:

Dow Theory, I ran it 2 days ago, so that's my current shape

Ok. Not sure if you're familiar with Daniels Running Formula, but that is a nice resource for sanity checks on training paces.

Your 16:47 gives you a 61 VDOT. For that fitness, Daniels suggests an Easy/Long range of 6:45-7:39. Also, Marathon pace of 6:09.

Using that, 6:30 seems a bit fast. I think if you & your coach agree you could benefit from more stimulus, you might consider bumping up your overall training mileage.

Obviously that range 6:45-7:39 is large. FWIW, I am consistently in the slower 1/2 portion of my range... and outside of it (on the slow side) on days that I'm fatigued or not feeling great. I've been improving a ton. Could I improve "faster" if I ran at the faster end? Who knows. I do know that every time I've forced a training pace (especially easy/long pace) I've ended up injured. Not the way to go.

I would not force your long run pace. Go for the "train, don't strain" philosophy. You have to figure that out for yourself. Experimenting within that Daniels range and seeing how you respond might be worth a try. I would NOT make a jump to the fast end of the range though. Maybe try 5-15 seconds/mile faster and see how you respond. Then go from there.

Oh, and doing something in training "because you can" is often not the best approach. I can do every single workout or long run harder. But learning the difference between a workout and a race, and applying it, has been critical to my improvement.

Discuss with your coach, for sure.

I, too, think it needs to be earned. It would seem like a bad idea to start out this way. It would also seem difficult, too. Last year, I doubt I would have succeeded in upping my long run pace.