Correction. Your heirs would own the guy in civil court.
James Madison wrote:
Don't know about criminal charges but I would own the owner in civil court.
Correction. Your heirs would own the guy in civil court.
James Madison wrote:
Don't know about criminal charges but I would own the owner in civil court.
I'm not sure the exact size, I tried to buy one of the smaller models, this was probably 5 years ago. I'll measure it when I get home. It still works great, 5 years old and only been used once. I was amazed how well it actually worked. But be careful, someone told me today on here that it may be a felony to carry it around with me. My wife kept it in her purse for a long time, and the weight didn't bother her at all. I don't even carry it much any more, I haven't seen an aggressive dog in a long time. I think banning the breed has done a lot in my community to curb the violence. (I know everyone will jump on the wagon now about how it's the owners and not the breed), but you don't even hear about dog attacks any more.
ideally an adult dog that bites a human should be culled (put down) after the first incident so that the aggressive genes are never passed on. I was attacked and bitten by a large aggressive husky on the loose a few years ago and it wound up costing the owner like 800 bucks in bills and fines. I later found out it's mom had to be put down before for biting some old lady.
CrossFan wrote:
I know this is a different state, which could make a difference, but could this be the same fate as what these dog owners could face?
http://news.yahoo.com/murder-charged-calif-dog-pack-mauling-death-190724722.html?.tsrc=yfpnewsapp
From the linked article:
"Marjorie Knoller received a 15-years-to-life sentence after a jury found her guilty of second-degree murder. In rejecting her appeal, the California Supreme Court ruled that Knoller acted with a conscious disregard for human life when her 140-pound Presa Canario escaped and killed Diane Whipple in an apartment building hallway.
Knoller's husband, Noel, was convicted of involuntary manslaughter."
I remember this case and I hope this guy gets the same treatment ... or worse.
To you guys carrying the ASP batons--I am blown away these are illegal in some states.
I looked into getting a telescopic baton to carry on my person because I work in a very dangerous area, and it took me about 5 minutes of googling to discover they are apparently illegal here in CA.
WTH?? I can't carry a stick for self-defense???
All the sites I looked at (including the one linked earlier in this thread to ASP) wouldn't let me buy one without a police ID.
I am truly boggled that it is legal for a citizen to own and use firearms, but not glorified sticks.
personal defense?? wrote:
To you guys carrying the ASP batons--I am blown away these are illegal in some states.
I looked into getting a telescopic baton to carry on my person because I work in a very dangerous area, and it took me about 5 minutes of googling to discover they are apparently illegal here in CA.
WTH?? I can't carry a stick for self-defense???
All the sites I looked at (including the one linked earlier in this thread to ASP) wouldn't let me buy one without a police ID.
I am truly boggled that it is legal for a citizen to own and use firearms, but not glorified sticks.
While out running, you are most likely dressed as a runner, not a typical thug. To any law enforcement officer, you are nowhere near the top of the criminal profile list. And you're not going to whip out that collapsible baton just for kicks any more than a law-abiding citizen with a concealed handgun permit would whip out a gun unnecessarily. When you need it, a cop won't be there. If a cop is there, chances are you won't need it. I don't know any cops who would arrest you for whipping out a defense baton against a dog or people attack. On the contrary, all the cops I know (and a know a great many) would applaud you. Oh, and you can buy many kinds of decent batons on Amazon.
Here's another option, assuming that you are an average runner with good leg strength. I'd rather have a good stick or bear spray, but take a look:
ShawnH,
How does a citizen get an asp? The link you provided appears to be for LEO only.
The only ones on amazon are like $20, seem cheap and are made by some company called fury with terrible reviews.
One other note about the telescoping type of tool or anything else like that that you can carry (even a stick or rock you pick up)...keep in mind than besides the effectiveness of of actually using it, it also does a couple other things. First, many dogs recognize that you have something in your hand, and they will recognize this and be more cautious because to them, you are less vulnerable. Secondly, having something to defend yourself will naturally change your posture, giving you the confidence to face the animal and look more confident, which naturally will trigger the instincts of the dog to recognize you as a tougher target to go after and make them more hesitant in most cases.
Living near where this incident happened, there is a lot of awareness of this issue in our area, for anybody that walks/bikes/runs. My daughter went out for a run yesterday, and a quarter mile down the road, she saw a stocky breed of dog trot out of a driveway ahead and jog down the road ahead of her (didn't see her). She turned around and went back home, and told me she is sticking to P90X instead. We are a family of runners, and I found this terribly disappointing that this incident would interfere with her (and many others) from being able to enjoy the benefits of running outside that we all know and love.
I also saw a neighbor, whose wife and him were leaving in their car, and I stopped to say hi. They are walkers who normally walk around out rural, scenic country roads. Now they are driving into town to go for their walks. Just bums me out to see that...
The latest:
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2014/07/lapeer_county_prosecutor_could.html
"Lapeer County Prosecutor Tim Turkelson said his office is awaiting the results of a police investigation into the July 23 attack, but he said his office could pursue manslaughter charges against the dogs' owners if the facts of the case warrant the felony that carries up to 15 years in prison.
Turkelson said he expects to receive the police report and make a decision regarding charges later this week.
The prosecutor said his office could also pursue charges of possession of a dangerous animal causing death, which also carries up to 15 years in prison."
Article also states it "can take months" to determine the fate of the animals. Just can;t believe they are still alive...
More on the owners and the history of the dogs, and the investigation:
http://www.hometownlife.com/article/20140729/NEWS10/307290012
Looks like both the owners and the Lapeer County Animal are in a heap of trouble...
Personal defense wrote:
ShawnH,
How does a citizen get an asp? The link you provided appears to be for LEO only.
The only ones on amazon are like $20, seem cheap and are made by some company called fury with terrible reviews.
You can't get an ASP without LEO credentials. That's the company's policy. But Fury products are not cheaply made, and many of those reviews are very positive. Even if they weren't high-quality, look at it with the proper perspective: If Glock came out with a policy that they would sell only to LEOs, and all you could get was a Taurus (nothing against Taurus, but I just think they are a second-tier gun maker, under Sig Sauer and Glock, would you not bother? Another poster on this thread pointed out that a simple stick in the hand and a threat of using it will make most dogs back down. As a runner who grew up in a rural area, and as a runner who loves to run on dirt roads out in the country, I've encountered many dogs, both vicious and loveable. Here, read another of my essays. It's about running and love, but there's some invaluable dog stuff in here, as well:
An Angel, the “Moo Truck,” and Dog Days in “The Land of Smiles”
I wake to the sound of the rooster in the yard next door. As usual, he won't let me sleep, but that's just as well. Dawn has come to our small, rural community in upcountry Thailand, the “Land of Smiles.” The rooster has been awake for hours, and most of our neighbors have been up before the crack of dawn.
Lying on my back, I stare at the ceiling and think how nice it would be to just stay in bed for another hour. Instead, I'll make myself go running. With the thermometer headed to 90 degrees again, the sooner I'm out the door, the better. Just a few more minutes, though. I roll over and snuggle close to my wife. I love holding her while she sleeps. She's the best thing that ever happened to me, and a better human being than I'll ever be. She came to me like an angel, at a time when my soul had all but given up on ever finding her. Now, after more than seven years of marriage, she is still my greatest joy. We never argue. We never hurt each other. In fact, not a single harsh word has ever passed between us. While my previous relationship was so often like running hill repeats in a minefield, never knowing when the next explosion would come, I now spend my days running through a beautiful, peaceful meadow. My wife and I are more than spouses; we are companions, lovers, and best friends. Running may have been my first love, but my greatest love breathes softly here beside me.
Reluctantly, so reluctantly, I sit up on the edge of the bed. I got plenty of sleep, but I still feel the stiffness in my legs and lower back. Of course, the best cure for that is always a good run.
I put on my new Adidas running shoes and grab my “dog stick,” a polished piece of hardwood several inches longer and thinner than a relay race baton, with a hole drilled near one end and a leather strap. Years ago, in Laredo, Texas, my martial arts teacher gave me this stick and taught me how to use it for a few simple self defense moves. When he moved away, my lessons ended, and all that remained was an orange belt and this stick. I don’t know what happened to the orange belt, but this stick sure comes in handy here in upcountry Thailand. I adjust the stick so that one end rides just under my elbow, the leather strap around the top of my forearm. The business end of the stick rides comfortably in the relaxed palm of my hand. As I run, it sits flush against the inside of my forearm, light and comfortable. In a flash, I can whip it out as an extension of my arm.
Walking out into the front yard, I hear the “moo” truck coming down the street. I call it the “moo” truck because “moo” means pig, or pork, in Thai. My wife and stepdaughter laugh when they hear me call it the “moo” truck. Over a loudspeaker, the driver plays a little song that, in Thai, says that “moo” is delicious, so come out, everyone, and buy some! In small U.S. towns, ice cream trucks still call children to come out and buy ice cream. Here in upcountry Thailand, “moo” trucks call everyone to come out and buy pork, fresh vegetables and other food for breakfast.
I stretch for a few minutes, and then walk briskly down the street for 200 meters. These days I really need to walk a bit to loosen up before running, especially in the morning. When I reach the street corner where the pavement ends, I ease into a jog. Beside the emerald rice fields, along the winding red dirt road, past our local Buddhist temple with its tree-lined staircase of glittering dragons, and onto the right side of a paved two-lane road I go, gradually picking up the pace. I always run on the right side of the road facing what little traffic may appear. Throughout Southeast Asia, cars drive on the left side of the road.
As I run, I pass a large, smelly chicken farm, more rice fields, and a granary with stacks of orange corn piled high. Up ahead is the first small house with Thai dogs. They know I'm coming long before I get there, and they're already barking. There isn't much else on the road to distract them. As I draw closer, out they come, three of them, barking at the edge of the road. These are the first of many Thai dogs I'll see on this six-mile run.
Fortunately, most are too lazy to come out to the road in the heat, so they just sit and bark as I pass by. One good thing about upcountry Thai dogs is that most of them are basically cowards. Like street gangs, they’re braver and more hostile in groups, but if you display confidence and, when necessary, a weapon, they’ll almost always back down. Most upcountry Thai dogs are no one's beloved pets; rather, they are simply mongrels that have found a place to hang out and beg. No one buys bags or cans of dog food for them. Instead they eat meager scraps and leftover rice. Often scrawny and not very intimidating, they do serve the purpose of letting their owners know when strangers come around. In America, on the other hand, with Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, German Shepherds, etc., there are plenty of big, healthy “attack” dogs that won't easily back down. Many American dogs would take one look at my little dog stick, eat the stick, and keep coming. Of course, in America, if someone's dog bites you, you can sue them, so fewer dogs are allowed to roam free. By contrast, in upcountry Thailand if someone's dog bites you, well, “Soeng sun” (loosely translated, “It sucks to be you”). Thai dogs don't usually bother you when you're walking, but here, as in every part of the world, there's something about runners that stimulates a canine's predatory instincts and natural love of the chase. On some days I see more country dogs than you can shake a stick at, but fortunately if I simply shake my little stick at them, they won't usually get too close. On rare occasions when I run across dogs that are more bold, I shake my stick and yell at them, even though they don't understand a word of English! Just once have I ever actually hit one of these dogs. On that particular occasion I hit a large, snarling dog in the mouth. He yelped and quickly ran home, and my dog stick now has a dog-tooth notch to commemorate the event.
As I run south along the quiet country road, the first rays of sunshine strike my skin, and the temperature immediately feels ten degrees warmer. Yes, it's hot in Thailand year-round, but I love running here in spite of the heat. When I was young, the long, cold, snowy Utah winters didn't affect me as they do now, and I enjoyed running outside despite the cold. But now, as an older runner, I actually prefer running in the heat, at least during the early morning hours.
I've run in many places throughout the world, some more memorable than others, including the “Old Town” in Panama City, Panama, with its Spanish colonial architecture; giant Chapultepec Park in Mexico City; along the Seine and around the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris; atop sheer cliffs high above the sea in Lima, Peru; beside the sea wall in Belize City, Belize; and even around a large compound in Afghanistan under the watchful gaze of Nepalese Gurkha guards armed with AK-47s. But as a small-town boy from northern Utah, this peaceful little town in upcountry Thailand is my favorite place to run outside America.
Reaching the half-way point of my six-mile run, I look up and see the giant white Buddha sitting high on the hill above me. Turning around in a gentle arc, I head for home. Back through the barking dog gauntlet, by the emerald rice fields, the smelly chicken farm, the Buddhist temple, and onto the winding red dirt road.
Reaching our street, I ease into a walk. I am greeted by elderly neighbors sitting by the canal, and some kids waiting to be picked up by a small school bus. Many young adults are already at the local market or out working in the fields, but the old folks smile and wave. I call out, “Aroon sa-wot,” a very formal way of saying “Good morning.” I'm well aware that no one talks like that around here, but I like to see them laugh and smile. One elderly woman chuckles and repeats the greeting to me. Another cheerfully replies, “Sabai dee bah?” the local Laos-dialect greeting that means “How are you?” An elderly man then asks, “Bai dai mah?” which means “Where are you coming from?” I don't know how to say where I've been, so I simply shrug, reply “Tee none” (over there), and point in the general direction of the red dirt road. Such a question would be considered very nosy in America, but here it’s common practice and friendly curiosity. In America, if someone you didn’t know asked you, “Where are you coming from?” you might reply, “Do I know you?” “Who are you?” or “Why do you want to know?” But here in upcountry Thailand, you almost never encounter open, intentional rudeness. You could spend your entire life in upcountry Thailand and never meet a Thai who would stare you down and ask, in Western bully fashion, “What the hell are you looking at?” Thais are generally warm and sociable people. When I’m out running, they openly smile and stare with genuine amusement at the white-skinned “farang” (the Thai word for foreigner) in his running shorts. That's no surprise since I'm the only one they ever see running. Surely they wonder why anyone would get up early to waste energy on a hot day simply for the sake of running. To them, I am a source of curiosity, conversation, and amusement. I don't mind because they are friendly.
Reaching home, I turn in to the dirt and gravel driveway, and see my sweet wife. She greets me with her radiant smile. “Bai op nom” (Go take a shower), she says. “And when you finish, mah gin kaew” (come eat breakfast). Sniffing the air, I smell the enticing aroma of spicy “moo” and rice, and I smile at my angel.
Today, as I've done thousands of times, I went running, and today my life is happier than it's ever been. I'm not a fast runner, except in my dreams, but I still love to run simply for how it makes me feel, both when I'm running and when I'm not. That's why I intend to keep running as long as I can, even when I'm so old that I only have distant, fading memories of what it was like to run far and fast with the wind in my hair. Now, as much as ever, running remains a big part of who I am, and who I'll always be.
These people have $ . They have paid out settlements to injured individuals and live in an upscale area . Also, this breed isn't cheap. Why don't they spend the $ and put up a good fence?
Bleu wrote:
These people have $ . They have paid out settlements to injured individuals and live in an upscale area . Also, this breed isn't cheap. Why don't they spend the $ and put up a good fence?
If allowed to run free dogs will poop off their territory. You don't have to take them for a walk and you don't have to pick up the poop. Absolutely the best way to live as a dog owner.
Maybe homeowners liability picked up the settlement cost.
Great prices on an ASP. Easy to get no credentials required. Not avail in CA. They have a small version that clips on and looks awesome. First thing that came up when I googled asp for sale.
Aggressive wrote:
http://www.thehomesecuritysuperstore.comGreat prices on an ASP. Easy to get no credentials required. Not avail in CA. They have a small version that clips on and looks awesome. First thing that came up when I googled asp for sale.
Nice. I don't need the link, but some here do. Thanks, "Aggressive."
Sounds like in the end, unless there’s a death, the removal or euthanizing of an animal ultimately is the owner’s decision:
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2014/07/we_werent_aware_of_previous_in.html
So the authorities only really have authority AFTER something tragic happens.
And in yet another twist to this story...the owners are illegal immigrants:
Think someone may lose their job today?
http://www.freep.com/article/20140729/NEWS05/307290145/dog-mauling-Metamora-Craig-Sytsma
CrossFan wrote:
Think someone may lose their job today?
http://www.freep.com/article/20140729/NEWS05/307290145/dog-mauling-Metamora-Craig-Sytsma
In the one case there was a lawsuit; his office would not have been aware of that, even if not directly involved in the case? The other case didn't appear to go to trial, but a ticket was issued. I can't believe there was no media coverage, especially with the fact that the local media appears to cover stories like this all the time. I have a hard time believing that his office had no idea. There might not have been an official case file plopped on his desk, but there had to have been some connection.
Yeah, exactly. On top of the owners getting sued/charged/jailed/deported/etc...some other heads are going to roll. Prosecutor and/or law enforcement and/or animal control...other?
In the article, he seems to be pointing the finger at the cops and/or animal control.
Of course, none of it will get this guy's life back... :-( Losing a family member/loved one due to someone else's simple carelessness has to just be insanely frustrating. Like a drunk driver not controlling their vehicle...