Letsrun, do we have another 'Caster Semenya situation' in girls 800 at 2014 World Juniors?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

not approved wrote:

To my understanding there is no specific testosterone level that results in a woman's results being declared invalid. Natural testosterone is not doping.

Gender verification was dropped in 1999. The Caster Semenya incident inspired a new IAAF policy whereby an unusually high testosterone level may trigger an investigation and a "therepeutic proposal".

The IAAF certainly doesn't want more such controversy. World Juniors may not have a high enough profile to force them to take action.

Can you point me towards the text of the IAAF's current policy? There were some very vague procedural guidelines but it was quite subjective. It may be the policy is more fully explained now.

Here's a start on the policy adopted to take effect in 2011:

"A female with hyperandrogenism who is recognised as a female in law shall be eligible to compete in women’s competition in athletics provided that she has androgen levels below the male range (measured by reference to testosterone levels in serum) or, if she has androgen levels within the male range she also has an androgen resistance which means that she derives no competitive advantage from such levels"

Key point here is the reference to "testosterone levels in serum". As the other poster pointed out, absolute testosterone testing requires a blood test. There is no in-competition blood testing at World Juniors nor is there a systematic requirement for pre-competition blood testing.

Therefore, any questions about these athletes may not be resolved unless they persist to Senior competition, particularly at WCs or the Olympics.

Thanks for putting that out there. I have some follow-up questions for you or anybody else who knows:

This is a press release. Can anybody find this in any IAAF competition manual? I have looked but it has been a couple of years since I looked.

What is the "male range" that was adopted?

What do you expect from developing countries like Kenya?

they don't quite grasp the concept of 'gay' so they'll put these athletes in the gendered events they should be in to score the most points

So, for my own curiosity, I looked in the eligibility manual for 2014-15. Didn't have time to look through the whole thing but looked at the medical eligibility and medical personnel sections and didn't see any relevant language at all. There is reference that there may be medical policies elsewhere, possibly, but I've never seen anything like that.

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=a3588664-5eff-49c2-977a-4665a12c19bf.pdf&urlslug=IAAF+Competition+Rules+2014-2015

OK there is actually a fairly comprehensive policy here:

http://www.iaaf.org/about-iaaf/documents/medical

It is at least comprehensive when talking about AIS, but a little vague, especially without the appendixes attached, with regards to Intersex individuals.

It appears that the medical director or the athlete has to initiated the review process.

I met her yesterday in Eugene and she looks nothing like a men. The way she runs might make her look like a guy.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

OK there is actually a fairly comprehensive policy here:

http://www.iaaf.org/about-iaaf/documents/medical

It is at least comprehensive when talking about AIS, but a little vague, especially without the appendixes attached, with regards to Intersex individuals.

It appears that the medical director or the athlete has to initiated the review process.

It might be best just to look at the explanatory notes in the HA section rather than the whole thing.

AIS is one type of intersex condition but it is the one that allows intersex women to continue to compete despite high blood T levels since they gain no benefit.

They were deliberately vague on other conditions since all they care about is the T. I can provide references if you are interested.

If you look near the bottom of page 2 of the notes it talks about how cases are identified. Blood tests are taken at world seniors or as part of the bio passport.

Sometimes atypical anatomy is noticed when a tester is watching the athlete pee into a cup, or the athlete or national federation can request an exam.

Booooo this guy wrote:

let's take a look wrote:

He knew for sure after everyone told him, and continued to cheat.

No she didn't. Tell me what rule she broke.

Running in a women's event as a man.

anyone else read the sports gene on these things? women's T/F is in major trouble - it just may not work as a professional sport in the 21st century - gene doping, intersex people, people with who will never test for T no matter how much they bathe their muscles with it...

I would not want to be a women with hopes for a pro track career.

Anybody else see the irony in a bunch of tools on a message board thinking they can gender assign people by eyeballing them on the tv, then accusing African countries of being too backward to understand IAAF gender rules?

we are americans!! We don't need no commie scientists telling us what we already know - the difference bewteen male and female.

They are guys, baby, and don't you know it. Only girls who look like girls should be allowed - that means passing the Hooters test for admission should be the minimum standard.

Right, previously a request could be made on behalf of another national federation. That appears to have gone by the wayside. I don't know if that is a positive or a negative development.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

previously a request could be made on behalf of another national federation. That appears to have gone by the wayside. I don't know if that is a positive or a negative development.

on your definition of positive.

I am not trying to be crass but...that's a homosexual male.

If there is any gender ambiguity or intersex condition, why is the default to assign gender as female? Obviously intersex conditions are complicated, but there should be more to determining gender in these cases than labeling persons without perfectly formed male anatomy as female.

pretty sure the person we've been discussing is the person that won, not the woman who pulled up from Kenya.

2minutemile wrote:

pretty sure the person we've been discussing is the person that won, not the woman who pulled up from Kenya.

Yes, the person discussed in the first post of this thread is Margaret Nyairera Wambui and she won the race.

The other Kenyan, Maximila Imali, who has also been discussed, is the one who pulled up in rather suspicious fashion.

Remains to be seen whether Nyairera Wambui will attempt to pass the blood testing protocol that applies to Senior athletes competing at Worlds level events.

And this incident may lead to pre-competition blood testing for World Juniors. Or it should anyway.

Pondering wrote:

If there is any gender ambiguity or intersex condition, why is the default to assign gender as female? Obviously intersex conditions are complicated, but there should be more to determining gender in these cases than labeling persons without perfectly formed male anatomy as female.

For the most part people get assigned thier gender at birth. The doctor looks between the legs and says boy or girl. If there is doubt, the usual assignment is female, largely because surgical prospects are better, not so they will dominate in sports.

Christ, give Mary Cain a crewcut and watch her run from a modest distance in a baggy uniform and you'd think she was a guy too.

Exactly. Many top 'female' competitors probably have hormonal systems that give them an advantage over their more female rivals. Cain is an excellent example of a 'boy'.