Sub 15 5k, post grad training

Man, too bad this wasn't the sub 16 thread. I guess too many people, like me would be on it, as the title might be more appropriate for fast girls.

PRS:

4:41 and 16:04.

I have a friend that is a bit slower than all your PRs that has gone sub 15 indoors this year (who is a post grad, a year or two) in a time trial. Ran a mile PR (4:20) then ran like 14:55. Granted it was a very fast indoor track. So you definitely have the speed for it.

Not keen on the specifics of his training, but based of what the club does two speed sessions a week. One long run at 12 to 15 miles. Think he does around 70 mpw, so if you have done the miles (8:37 should be like 14:40 at least assuming same fitness) you'll get it.

Personally, I recommend a downhill 5k.

I was injured in the summer and early fall so I haven't raced on the track since early 2014, when I ran 15:20 indoors. Recently, I've raced a half marathon in 1:11:50. It was my third time running around that for a half, and felt the most relaxed by far. But I ran the same time, so I'm not sure what to make of it.My guess is that I'm one month of 5k workouts and mileage away from that 15:20 time on a good day.I'm planning on racing at least one 5000 and one 10,000 outdoors in Mid-May. I may do a 1500 or 3000 and the another 5000. That would involve racing 4 out of 5 weeks, ending with the 2nd 5000. I'm thinking my best bet is to err on the side of over racing, given how little I've raced recently. I find for me it take some practice before I can really go to the well in a race.My A goal is to run sub 15, B goal is to run under 15:10 and C goal is to PR with anything under 15:20.

Axc wrote:

Not getting any younger wrote:

My recent training:

mileage has been hovering between 60-70 per week.

Wednesday 4/1: 12 x 800 at 5:17 pace with 1:30 recovery

Friday 4/3: hour run with 10x100m at the end

Sunday 4/5: Easy long / 15 miles at 7:00 pace

Tuesday 4/7: 6x800 in 2:25 with 400m recovery. This was the first workout at or near 3k/5k pace. Aerobically felt okay, but the legs aren't there at these paces yet.

You sound like you are in similar shape to me... maybe a little bit better.

Have you had any recent races? Any coming up?

Reed, my son ran a 4 mi. tempo this week at 5:10 pace. All the miles were pretty much even pace. Said he felt pretty comfortable. What kind of 5 k shape

do you think he is in?

So Axc, here is what I do every week now.

Sunday 2 hrs, no crazy fast, usually 15 or so miles.

Monday 60 minutes, I can get close to 10 here. I am trying not to do that as much now as my workout days have become much tougher.

Tuesday 5 miles am (35 minutes), workout evening (Can be anything from hills, to tempo to track work, depends on what my coach sends). 15 total on the day.

Wednesday 80 to 90 minutes so 12 to 13 miles. Pace is not crazy hard, but a good effort.

Thursday 5 am again (35 minutes), then a workout in the evening. 15 total.

Friday 50 minutes so usually 8 miles (about 52 minutes).

Saturday am workout, then 5 miles pm (35 minutes) 15 total.

This puts me at 90+-. I run 200's, 300's 400's, hills, tempos, longer track workouts like 3k time trials, or different distances three times, etc...

I usually hit everything around 4:50 or faster in the workouts. I have not run under 15 since August, but I was not doing all this stuff for the past 8 years. One last thing, the weeks go a week with 2 workouts, then 2 weeks with 3 workouts, then back to 2 and that rotation keeps going.

POWERFUL and INFORMATIVE training website :

http://tinyurl.com/ns9xzqu

for what it's worth wrote:

Reed, my son ran a 4 mi. tempo this week at 5:10 pace. All the miles were pretty much even pace. Said he felt pretty comfortable. What kind of 5 k shape

do you think he is in?

depends on definition of "pretty comfortable" to be honest. i'd guess that he'd be sub 15 for sure if the workout was a reasonable effort. beyond that i can't predict because it's too far from my personal fitness level. there are people that may do a 4mi "tempo" at 5:10 pace that can only run 15:20, and some may be running 14:20. it's an effort thing

swift23er, haven't seen you around in a while. when did you start doing actual workouts? i recall you just doing lots of runs around 6min pace every day not that long ago

RunnersFix wrote:

Reed- I honestly think you have much more in the tank. I've been seeing your weekly posts in the training forum and like what the others have said I think going out a bit faster may help. It's very unpredictable but you have nothing to lose. I'd say aim for a 72-73 first lap. If you have others to pace with then that's great but race for yourself. You have been improving with what you're doing so it's a bit tough to deny with what's working. Maybe incorporating other things into what you're doing but I wouldn't change what you're doing now. You'll get that sub 15 with time!

I couldn't agree more with Runnersfix on all accounts. What you are doing in training is working - keep doing that. When possible, a bump in mileage certainly won't hurt. You don't have to pump out 100 mile weeks - I think you would benefit from steady 75-85 mile weeks, dropping as you peak for races.

You remind me a lot of a local runner in my area who is in his late 20s, maybe even 30 now. He had always been a 16 minute 5k until the last couple years, when he bumped up mileage to train for longer distances. I think he probably averages 75-80 miles a week in peak training now and he surprised himself with a sub-53 minute 10 miler this past October. He then dropped down and ran a promising 4:28 mile in January about 6 weeks before a breakthrough 15:27 5k (roads).

He wanted to see what he could pull off in a fast 5000m so he got into a field of about 25 runners last week, hoping to run as many 73s as possible. He came through the first lap DFL in 72! The pack settled down, though, and he ran his race, clicking off 72-73 every lap for 9 more laps, passing runners all the while. Afterward he said he was hurting something bad the last 1000m but he knew he had a time going so he just kept trying to pass people. Turns out his last two laps ended up being 70 and 69 for a 15:04!

He couldn't believe his time, he swore he was slowing down and tying up at the end. Sometimes you just need to get out of your comfort zone and say to hell with it and let it fly. I am learning this myself, as my last two races have been solid negative splits. To get to the next level for me (nowhere near where you're at!), I need to just go for it. What's the worst that can happen, you fail while risking valiantly? There are far worse fates in life.

Keep up the good work. You'll get there.

So Reed to answer your question, back in January I made the decision to get someone to coach me, which was hard for me. For 8 years my crazy training kept me running well, and overall I competed well considering I really was not doing any real workouts pretty quick. Yes I would go to the gym and get on the treadmill and crank out some crazy runs here and there, but for the most part everyday was 12 miles, 6:00 or faster almost always. You also have to consider I was doing this at 6200 feet day in and day out.That training caught up to me and I started to run slower, most likely because I was running too fast the day before races, and overall because I was just running fast all the time. I also got caught up in not taking days off, and did not miss a day from July 16th to January 7th. 80+ miles a week or more the whole time. Easy was not in my training plan. Now I have slowed down on the recovery days, still near high 6 pace, but better for recovery and hit my workouts very hard. I have been lucky enough to have run in the 14:15's, 14:30's, 14:40's and 14:50's without the workouts I am doing now. Hopefully everything I am doing now will get me to another level, but it has been tougher for sure. Finally, as others have said, build the mileage up. I am running close to 90 a week, and have run 4100, and 4200 miles the last two years. Its all grain in the hopper.

Just curious, do you know what the weather conditions were when your friend ran this race you described?

for what it's worth wrote:

Just curious, do you know what the weather conditions were when your friend ran this race you described?

Not sure, I wasn't at the race. I was given the details second hand by a mutual friend who was there. I am not close friends with the guy, but he's one of many local runners I root for and I am happy to see how well he's doing.

Why do you ask? Do you think you were at the race?

Every once in a while the weather cooperates and everything seems to fall into place. There's a reason why certain places are known to produce fast times. However, no one should apologize for running well in good conditions. I understand your encouraging Reed to "go for it". I think Reed understands his current fitness, he has a lot of experience racing. If you can go from 15:2high to 14:59. it is more likely the stars all lined up that day. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but something in your training should be indicating that you are ready to run well.

Swift23r, reminds me of the "old school mindset" kinda like a Dick Beardsley type. Beardsley got very good by pushing the pace on workouts. Pushing the pace worked for Swifter23r, very good to a point, then he began to deal with the fatigue of over training. Now it looks like he is starting to train smarter. Training at high altitude can absolutely leave you in a constant of fatigue if you don't know how to train in it. I think Swift23r could become very good. I would be very interested to see how he training now.

Another not so great workout for me

5 mile tempo: 28:29

(5:42, 5:42, 5:36, 5:42, 5:47)

75 minutes today, felt fairly dead but better as the run went on.

One part of me thinks that I need a break or a least a week with no workouts. The other wants to blame a few bad workouts on the weather (tempo yesterday was high 80's, sun and wind in my face on the last 2.5 miles) and being sick.

I'm thinking if my workout on tuesday goes poorly I'll look to take a down week or two.

Thread seems to be taking off now which is nice to see

AXC, try cutting back mileage and or the pace of recovery easy day miles. For sure the conditions made your tempo workout hard! Build your big miles in base build up and then slowly reduce when you start racing season. For XC my son in his JR year hit 100 mi. peak for 3 weeks and 1 week in early season. Running this higher mileage did not make him a beast in XC. He is running outdoor now and is at less than 50 mi. weekly and is running workouts and racing good. He is mid. distance. You will not lose your aerobic fitness by cutting back overall mileage in season.

I see a pervasive mentality in the running world of upping mileage as a cure all solution. When you start showing signs of fatigue you need to back off, your body is not recovering properly.

AXC wrote:

5 mile tempo: 28:29

(5:42, 5:42, 5:36, 5:42, 5:47)

The other wants to blame a few bad workouts on the weather (tempo yesterday was high 80's, sun and wind in my face on the last 2.5 miles) and being sick.

high 80s and you tried to do a tempo run? geez dude you're brave.

i would absolutely forget about that tempo due to the weather. i'm guessing you got the effort in, so quit worrying about it. is there a cooler time of day you can run workouts? i'd do that for tuesday instead of heading out in the heat.

again everybody thanks for helping me out. i'll be racing a 1500m next friday or saturday, gonna be my first mid-d race in a long time so the pain will be a weird change of pace. just gonna be conservative, try to learn something, then try another 1500 the next week. i guess the goal would be to run 67s

M 5/7 double

T 10 w/ hard track workout

W 11 easy

Th 6/6 double

F 9 w/ 24min fartlek

Sa 10 hilly trail run

Su 12 easy

total 76.8

tuesday: plan was 6x800 (3min rest) at goal 5k pace of 2:26s then 4x300 fast. hit 2:26,27,25,25,23,23 then did 4x300 in spikes in 48.3, 47.6, 48.8, 45.8. thats the fastest i've done 300s and it didnt feel too bad. first time in spikes this year, and i was sore til saturday.

friday: easier fartlek ladder, 12min at fast pace and 12min easy with a ladder from 15sec to 2min then back down

Hey Man,Don't get too bummed on one individual workout, especially if your mileage has been high. I often anticipate and expect to feel bad in workouts during times of higher mileage. For me it takes several months for my body to really acclimate to increases in intensity or mileage and along the way there will be some rough workouts (usually 1 out of 3).If you're getting late into your season or starting to approach some of your goal races, you might consider taking a down week or starting to back off on the mileage as others suggested.If you're still a ways away from your goal races though, rather than cutting back completely, you could just cut back the days around workouts. What I like to do is the day prior and sometime after, a big workout or tempo, I run by time only. If you usually do 9 miles in 60 minutes, I would switch to just 60 minutes and slow it down to whatever feels easy. No need to measure the run or think about what pace you ran. This helps me stay fresh for workouts.It's inevitable that you'll experience some troughs in your training, stay the course and have faith in the process!

AXC wrote:

Another not so great workout for me

5 mile tempo: 28:29

(5:42, 5:42, 5:36, 5:42, 5:47)

75 minutes today, felt fairly dead but better as the run went on.

One part of me thinks that I need a break or a least a week with no workouts. The other wants to blame a few bad workouts on the weather (tempo yesterday was high 80's, sun and wind in my face on the last 2.5 miles) and being sick.

I'm thinking if my workout on tuesday goes poorly I'll look to take a down week or two.

Thread seems to be taking off now which is nice to see

Reed, Tues. workout is solid for faster paced workout. If you want to run fast 5 k I would make 4 mi. tempo the main focus of your training. :20/:25 sec. slower than current 5 k fitness. Then your speed/faster paced workout. You also need to "decrease" not increase your weekly mileage. Bad advice to keep increasing mileage and then one final taper. Start decreasing mileage on your easy days and long run until final taper. 45/55 mi. is okay! At the same time your main workouts get a little faster. Tempos should be run as evenly paced as conditions/terrain allow. I like that you are going to race a couple of 1500's, smart choice! Sorry you can't relate to my treadmill advice. You would run treadmill workout in base build only. Running hills is really good, the problem with running good size hills is in the decline. You don't have the potential problem of the decline on the mill.

I used to run a 5 mi. loop on the mountain trails by the Claremont colleges and learned the hard way of running downhills too hard.

Are you running with CPSLO or unattached?

Did you ever hear the story about Henry Rono in the bar in Oregon. Run the hills, what hills? any hill.

Sorry for long winded post, I'm not a know it all, just pretty much retired and love the challenge of training.

Got some cooler weather and got a satisfying workout in finally

Tuesday: 4x2k on a 10:30 cycle. 3x400 one lap jog rest

2k's (6:43, 6:38, 6:36, 6:37)

400's (65, 69, 67) wore spikes for these mainly just because I hadn't laced them up for nearly a year.

Thursday 3 mile tempo

This was weird because I got a pretty bad side stitch that forced me to stop at 1 3/4 mile after like 10 minutes it went away and I finished. Not pleased with that but it it was a hard effort and def not my primary workout of the week.

16:22 total (5:32, 5:56, 5:13)

Friday 80 minute long run

Reed: I'm interested to hear what your workouts actually are (times and rest intervals) and some actual race results.

Axc wrote:

Reed: I'm interested to hear what your workouts actually are (times and rest intervals) and some actual race results.

well, i've posted the details of my track workouts recently. i ran a 15:28 5k a couple weeks ago on the track.

last week i did 8x300 in 2 sets at 1500ish pace. ran 49s with 60sec rests and 5min after the first 4 which was unnecessary for me but it made the workout easier.

saturday i raced a 1500 in 4:17mid. ran poor tactically, split 68 and 2:17 but slowed too much in the 2nd and 3rd laps. this was kind of just a test race to figure out the 1500 before my next 1500 in 2 weeks. goal will be 4:12ish for that, and anything under 4:14 will be good.

my next hard workout will be 5x1600 on friday, i'll shoot for 5:00s with 3min recoveries. fastest i've done this workout is 5:03s a couple times