is Meb now the greatest American marathoner ever

Should add that Shorter's Silver in Olympics was behind Cierpinski, who had a long, documented history of drugs, per the East German records that were kept. Also, Shorter won Fukuoka 4 times, and that was then the World Champs of marathoning every year.

Shorter

Meb

Boston Billy

DeMar

Salazar

Johnny Kelly for incredible consistency

This guy jumps on every bandwagon. At one point, he was obsessed with BR. He had a penchant for Mutai until Kipsang beat the WR. He defended the NOP until the grave; no way they'd cheat. Who was he rooting for after Indoor Worlds? NOP, because he was "inspired by their hard work." When he found out they were doping? They're horrible people. I won't even argue with this guy because he'll be arguing the contrary point next month.

Star wrote:

Let's take a quick look at Bill Roger's resume and re-think this:

Boston marathon - 4 wins

New York marathon - 4 wins

He also won:

Fukuoka, Amsterdam, Houston and Melbourne marathons, which were major

Face it: Rogers was racing in the special olympics relative to the fields Meb has faced and taken down.

The fact that he won Boston and NYC x4 actually SHOWS how piss-weak the sport was then.

Neither Mutai, Kimetto or Kipsang will EVER have records like that, and they will retire with multiple 2:03s on the books. Is Rogers better than them?

You fanboys will say anything. It is amazing the stupidity of you.

lol at NotAustin18 wrote:

This guy jumps on every bandwagon. At one point, he was obsessed with BR. He had a penchant for Mutai until Kipsang beat the WR. He defended the NOP until the grave; no way they'd cheat. Who was he rooting for after Indoor Worlds? NOP, because he was "inspired by their hard work." When he found out they were doping? They're horrible people. I won't even argue with this guy because he'll be arguing the contrary point next month.

this

lol at NotAustin18 wrote:

This guy jumps on every bandwagon. At one point, he was obsessed with BR. He had a penchant for Mutai until Kipsang beat the WR. He defended the NOP until the grave; no way they'd cheat. Who was he rooting for after Indoor Worlds? NOP, because he was "inspired by their hard work." When he found out they were doping? They're horrible people. I won't even argue with this guy because he'll be arguing the contrary point next month.

Aw shucks, you're so kind.

When I heard about Rodgers I thought he was so cool man. And I've liked Mutai since I heard about him in 2011 after Boston. He's been and still is my favorite marathoner since then. And yeah I was wrong on NOP, their hard work is admirable, then I found out about the drugs and Mo cheating on his wife and stopped rooting for them. I found about their doping the day of Carlsbad 5k. And Lagat has always been one of my favorites, I rooted for him not Rupp at USA indoors and World indoors this year. Lagat is so cool, one run a day all quality and a good family man, I got respect for that.

Mike Lundgren wrote:

Should add that Shorter's Silver in Olympics was behind Cierpinski, who had a long, documented history of drugs, per the East German records that were kept. Also, Shorter won Fukuoka 4 times, and that was then the World Champs of marathoning every year.

Shorter

Meb

Boston Billy

DeMar

Salazar

Johnny Kelly for incredible consistency

this is good. I think the Meb / boston billy is debatable tho

KK eez da best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One fellow that deserves such special mention and has not received it, is Buddy Edelen, set the then world record of 2:14 and won the Olympic Trials by 20 minutes over 2nd place, hot day, no water. Went on to take 6th in Olympics with severe sciatica. Plus was a wonderful guy.

Honorable mentions go to Johnny Kelly the younger, and Amby Burfoot.

Mike Lundgren wrote:

One fellow that deserves such special mention and has not received it, is Buddy Edelen, set the then world record of 2:14 and won the Olympic Trials by 20 minutes over 2nd place, hot day, no water. Went on to take 6th in Olympics with severe sciatica. Plus was a wonderful guy.

Honorable mentions go to Johnny Kelly the younger, and Amby Burfoot.

Don't know why people have put down this guys selections, they are the only ones that make any sense to me.

1) Shorter

2) Boston Billy

3) Meb

4) Edelen

5) Demar

6) Kelly (elder and younger tie)

7) Salazar

Also please keep in mind the rules for water prior to the early 80's.

meb=goat wrote:

your opinion, as usual, is wrong. i did find it very comical in your first supposition you completely omitted clarence demar, the guy who kind of won boston 7 times. it's nice that you arbitrarily think that his competition was weak enough to negate his wins but you don't think that the competition of the 70s and 80s guys was weak enough to negate their wins despite it being exponentially weaker than that of today.

1) My opinion is 100% correct.

2) Clarence DeMar was running WAAAAAAAY too slowly (one of his Boston wins was in 2:40!) to be considered here.

3) Competition WAS weaker in the 70s and 80s, but Meb's winning times (NY and Boston) aren't really better than Rodgers' and Salazar's times. BR ran 2:09 which was Meb's PR before the Boston win, and of course BR DID run 2:08:23 on a course that was 200 meters short, so that would have been just under 2:09 too. And, of course, Salazar has run 2:08 more than once and 2:09 more than once.

4) Again, Meb is great. He's not the greatest American marathoner. KK, BR, and AS are FOR SURE ahead of him, and simply because his times are so much better, I would argue Ryan Hall is better too. Meb has more significant WINS than Hall, but that doesn't make him greater than Hall.

"4) Again, Meb is great. He's not the greatest American marathoner. KK, BR, and AS are FOR SURE ahead of him, and simply because his times are so much better, I would argue Ryan Hall is better too. Meb has more significant WINS than Hall, but that doesn't make him greater than Hall."

That is a ridiculous position to take. W's mean much more than time. It's a race not a time trial! Showing up when it counts means more than running fast times. Hall has Hou (half), Boston, and the Trials- that's it. The rest of his career has been "potential" which he seems to have wasted.

If you don't have Meb in the top 3 you need to rethink your understanding of the sport.

1. Frank Shorter ('72 Gold, '76 Silver, 4 x Fukuoka, 2:10AR)

2. Meb Keflezighi ('04 Silver, '12 4th, 1 x NYC/Boston, 2:08)

3. Bill Rodgers (4 x NYC, 4 x Boston, 2:09AR)

4. Alberto Salazar (3 x NYC, 1 x Boston, '84 15th, 2:08WR)

5. Ryan Hall ('08 Trials, '08 10th, 2:04AR)

6. Khalid Khannouchi (4 x Chicago, 1 x London, 2:05WR)

#ocl wrote:

1. Frank Shorter ('72 Gold, '76 Silver, 4 x Fukuoka, 2:10AR)

2. Meb Keflezighi ('04 Silver, '12 4th, 1 x NYC/Boston, 2:08)

3. Bill Rodgers (4 x NYC, 4 x Boston, 2:09AR)

4. Alberto Salazar (3 x NYC, 1 x Boston, '84 15th, 2:08WR)

5. Ryan Hall ('08 Trials, '08 10th, 2:04AR)

6. Khalid Khannouchi (4 x Chicago, 1 x London, 2:05WR)

This is the list I'd go with if I had little knowledge of the history of the event, or you were just counting the last 45 years. Most of those who weren't racing in the 60's and 70's don't realize that people didn't run for time, they ran to win. In fact, road times were not even recognized and there was no such thing as certification and pre-certification. They were races, not time trials.

Winners didn't get "extra" for course records, or incentive bonuses for times. there were certainly no "rabbits"

ataglance wrote:

Don't forget that Rodgers & Shorter didn't have to run against people on EPO either. Granted Im sure some were people blood doping or taking low doses of test. but still, epo has been a game changer for all endurance sports, that's why I weight Ws than times.

Who's done it when it counted? Meb has shown up consistently.

kinda the other way around - shorter and rogers had to race against the east europeans/russians of the 70s. Shorter would have been a 2x OG champ, undisputed GOAT american...except cierpinski was a product of the drug factories.

I wonder if Rogers had been allowed to run in 1980 and won if he would be the goat american.

Not sure how to choose between Meb and Shorter - both have done amazing things. Too close to call.

Flagpole wrote:

Meb has more significant WINS than Hall, but that doesn't make him greater than Hall.

This is the dumbest thing you've ever written.

Mike Lundgren wrote:

Should add that Shorter's Silver in Olympics was behind Cierpinski, who had a long, documented history of drugs, per the East German records that were kept.

And if you repeat it 1000x, it's still not true. Cierpinski may have been a drug cheat or not, there is no proof other than a guy claiming he has seen a record that claims that he was doping.

Show me the document. And don't link to that stupid ESPN article that says that there was a guy who thought he saw a record that stated he was doping.

Also, Shorter won Fukuoka 4 times, and that was then the World Champs of marathoning every year.

It was "considered" to be the World Champs, but it wasn't. Big difference.

In Shorter's day the only people who took Boston seriously were North Americans, New York wasn't big until later. Fukuoka was the defacto world championship (if there was one), otherwise the focus was on the Olympics.

Times have changed and so has the focus. The Marathon majors have become as important as the Olympics for the Marathon - because of the money, and that warm weather championships don't lend themselves to fast races (Wanjiru exempted). Stephen Kiprotich and Abel Kurui have shown us that anomoly.

There is nothing to say that the guys from the 70's and '80's couldn't have run faster in the racing environment of today (to Meb's times anyway) - people respond to what the competition requires. Secondly, the marathon wasn't the big deal then as it is today - still the mindset of an event for those over the hill or too slow for the track. That is no longer (for the most part) true, and the world-record progression in the past 10-15 years (relative to the track) is a testament to this fact.

Having said that I would put both Shorter and Meb on an equal footing, with the possibility of one over the other depending on what one chooses to value higher - Olympic medals (2 vs 1 and a 4th) or tougher modern competition. There are no absolutes here, simply choices. Rodgers and Khannouchi are also at a similar level, both dominant in the sport at one time, with a different emphasis - Rodgers raced a lot in order to make money, which likely negatively impacted some of his racing quality, Khannouchi made a name by running fast (WR) at majors (Chicago, London) when only a few good races a year were necessary to be adequately remunerative. Salazar really didn't have the longevity, and his best races had good competition even from Americans (Beardsley).

I think it's Meb.

The competition is in a different universe than when Shorter, Rodgers, and Salazar ran. Rodgers's won 4x NYC/Boston because it can't mean the same thing as it would today. I don't think *anyone* could do that now with the quality and depth of competition.

KK probably has a good claim (winning over Tergat & Geb in a WR in London 2002), but it's complicated with two of his Chicago wins coming before he was a citizen. Also, just 10 to 15 years ago, competition wasn't what it is now. KK has a better PR, but how many guys did Meb beat with PRs better than KK's WR? Meb's PR is 2:08, but we should not by now that his PR doesn't reflect his ability.

Men

Clarence De Mar

Khalid Khannouchi

Meb

Alberto Salazar

Frank Shorter

Bill Rodgers

Notable mentions

Johnny Hayes - first person to win the 26 mile 385 yard marathon, winning Olympic Gold in the process. He came 2nd and 3rd in Boston. Winner of the inaugural Yonkers marathon.

Albert Michelson - first man to go under 2:30

Leonard Elison - first man to go under 2:15

Women

1. Patti Catalano

2. Deena Castor

3. Joan Benoit

4. Miki Gorman

5. Kara Goucher

6 = Desiree Davila and Amy Hastings